Sola Scriptura? Is it actually in the Scriptures?

Hi TruthloverFor context you put up a section of Romans 6, starting at verse 12: "Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal bodies.." Your version didn't include the word 'therefore' whereas 3 versions I have include that. No big deal except words like therefore (and they are well worth looking out for should anyone be a biblical novice like me) etc point us back to something Paul has previously said. IOW he is making his current points in your quote as a consequence of something that has gone before. Which starts at verse 1 of the chapter.... Paul has presented the gospel and has concluded it in chapter 5 with assurance of salvation for believers. Although talking to Christians in Rome, he is also going to deal with a common objection when someone hears the gospel: assured salvation by grace through faith. "Hey, you mean I can sin all I like and still get to heaven. Hey Ho lets go - I'll have a piece of that!!!" A couple of things of note:- Pauls use of incredulity at the very thought of Gods grace being treated thus.. "How can we.." "Do you not know that all of us..."
- baptized into Christ
- the concept of born again
- certainty of resurrection (tying together nicely with "No condemnation for those who are in Christ" Romans 8:1) Paul is explaining why the Christian shouldn't for a moment think he is now free to sin as he likes. He is explaining the positional change that has happened (into Christ (out of Adam)). He talks elsewhere of citizenship/sonship/servanthood/heirs...of God. He is explaining to the Christian in technical terms, what has actually happened to him. He is pointing out the them how ludicrous it is to act in anyway contrary to the position they now hold. "Sin as you please?? - are you nuts - do you not know what you are??!! Your a son, an heir, a citizen of heaven, an adopted son, completely righteous etc "Only in the light of the above should the following exhortation be read... Mortal body and spirit are two separate things (covered amply in Romans. He talks here as elsewhere about where sin resides in the Christian. Not in the eternal spiritual bit but in the mortal, going to die, body. "You" - not mortal bodies but you the actual person who is you. You, spirit. And a person not under law cannot, obviously, break the law or be judged by the law. "If the son sets you free, you will be free indeed" This is a truism. The question is whose servant are you...? To paraphrase:
Sin? How can you? Do you not realise what has happened to you? You were trapped under law, in sin, dead to God but you have been translated out of that into something else - out of Adam and into Christ. Sin remains but now only in your mortal body. It's going to die but resist it precisely because of what your spiritual position is: a son, an heir - certain of heaven (which I've already just explained to you in chapter 5). Realise how glorius is this gospel - and start acting what you are. And lest you forget: remember that it is through Jesus that eternal comes to you - "it is not by works - lest anyone should boast"

As I was reading the analogy I was seeing exactly how you would see it that way, but not agreeing with it's appropriateness. Until I got to this summation. The fact is that people try and try and try the diets and yet they slip back. They may gain a level of control by sheer force of will.What they need to succeed is a complete change of lifestyle. And this is where the gospel comes in. Gospel means Good News. What is this good news: is it yet another new fad diet, the torture of applying willpower, the despair of another failure to diet and the perpetual fear when one is on the wagon that one could so easily fall off the wagon, Hardly. It's more like torture...How about if someone came in and simply took your old lifestyle from you. Erased all the tendency to overeat, erased all the desire to overeat, who gave you the figure you always wanted - a perfect figure. Who did it all for you without you having to do a shred of work yourself.Now THAT would be good news. And that's the gospel too. God only knows why people want to make bad news out of it (well, it's kind of obvious but that would be another threads work. Speaking of which - this is all getting a bit off topic....ain't it

And what is not the will of God? Not loving your neighbour. Given that none of us can follow this COMMAND under our own steam the future don't look too bright. And if you are going to say (as I strongly suspect you will) "it means doing your best" then it would help if you could produce biblical backup for this positionAbE: John 1:12 "some however did receive Him
and believed in Him; so he gave them the right to be called children of God." seems to blow the "universal sonship" idea out of the water (and I didn't even quote Paul. Now that's a first This message has been edited by iano, 27-Oct-2005 07:26 PM

[qs=Ringo]Only an idiot or a sadist would demand 100% success from his children. Is God an idiot or a sadist?[/]qsYou forget to include a completely righteous and holy God James 2:10-11, NIV. "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.Right your turn. Biblical evidence of trying your best Some (not all) believed, recieved (action) "so he gave" (reaction). I don't see the problem - unless you are suggesting that we're all children of God but some get the right to be called it - like a special privilege or something.Go on Ringo, open the bible, lets use verses a little to make the points

A timely point...seeing as my dinner is getting cooked too. Sorry all for the diversion.

You might do that but note that the separation occurs (righteous/unrighteous) before there is any mention of works. No matter. The point was that works:cause of righteousness/works:consequence of righteousness are equally valid interpretations based on this passage alone. To look further we must look elsewhere Why? The only way we can assume anything at all to be accurate is to assume for the sake of discussion that it's all God-breathed. As soon as we stray from that then none of it can be supposed to be accurate (for the purposes of discussion). Should we put Johns recording (without any technology to help) of Jesus words as accurate (only possible if god-inspired presumed) but Pauls just writing own doctrine (not god-inspired). Seems like a recipe for whatever your having yourself to me Pre-destination is a difficult topic but given none of know what eternity is like and how it might operate, it is impossible to form concretes about it. There is ample elsewhere to draw rational conclusions that God loves all, wants that none would perish, whoseover believe, go spread the word etcI won't go on here Brian as I mentioned to Ringo. Its well off topic. I've posed a thread dealing with salvation-by-trying which awaits approval. Maybe there?

It happens exactly that way... To clarify. You, me and everyone else are made up of mortal/immortal bits. Body/spirit. The "new figure" applies only to the spirit - that's the bit that God is interested in saving. That is the bit which is declared righteous. The bit which forms who you are: NWR. You are, biblically, not your fingers or toes or brain. The body is but a vehicle in a time based world. Sin remains in the mortal body; Christian or otherwise. The Christian will struggle with sin IN HIS BODY and is for various reasons exhorted to resist sin. But none of these have anything to do with salvation. The body is going to die anyway.Do you mind if I have the last word on this - it's too off topic. Theres a thread posed awaiting release "Trying a stairway to heaven" maybe there?This message has been edited by iano, 28-Oct-2005 12:04 PM

Foiled again . Lets insert your greek translation in then... Is this not an if/then statement, ie: a logic statement? There is no conditions attached to it except a fulfillment of 'if'. If the 'if is true of you (as Paul says it is to those he addresses in the next verse) then the 'shall also' will happen to you. Your resurrection is dependant on the 'if' Position is very important indeed. It can't be bypassed so easily. Something special has happened to a Christian: bapitism into Jesus. There is something true of the person who hasn't had this happen a there is the person who has had it happen. If "dead to sin" because of baptism then alive to sin without it. If "he that is dead (has been crucified with Christ) is freed from sin" then he who has not been crucified is still captive to sin. The Christian is dead to sin, is freed from sin. there are most definitely two camps described into which a person belongsBut a Christian sins still so what does this mean? "Our citizenship is in heaven" gives us a clue as to the repositioning. Our citizenship, the place where we belong has changed. We are "aliens" here on earth. It's as if we used to fight for the Nazis. God has changed our citizenship the that of the Allies. That is who we now belong to. It is a legal act, a forensic act. A declaration that our nationality has been changed.Hence Pauls exhortation to resist sin: not because it will result in condemnation (for there is no condemnation for those that are in Christ (note same condition - in Christ) but because it is a contradiction of who we now are. His very use of 'its ludicrous' language instead the 'it's bad' language at the start of 6 reinforces this. "How shall (or could) we...??". "Do you not know...??". It is true that a person can still sin. But where does that sin occur. In what fashion. Paul talks of it occuring in the mortal flesh. No surprise. It wasn't the mortal flesh which was put to death afterall. It is not the mortal flesh which is freed from sin. It is old, dead to God spirit which has been put to death and reborn or resurrected "alive unto God". Spirit is free and alive and freed from sin, mortal flesh in which sin still resides.You then talk of the consequences of sin occuring. But none are mentioned here: Paul is again going to contrast two positions. He is reminding Christians what the 'benefit' of sin was before they were Christians and where it would have led had they remained so. More of "it's ludicrous to say 'shall we then sin..." - which is the issue he is still dealing with...The switching of tense "the end of those things is death" from past to present doesn't mean continuing in sin will result in their (spiritual) death. "those things" refers to something specific: sins committed whilst in the former position. But they are not in the former position.But now.... They are in a new position, spiritually (although not physically) set free from sin. The wages of sin is indeed death. And die that which carries sin will. The mortal body....

Not quite nwr. Man is body and spirit. As born, the body is going to die because of sin in it. The spirit is not going to die because it is eternal. But it being unrighteous means it will have its sin punished - Hell. God wants to save the spirit from this. How he does it is to take Christs righteousness and gives or clothes us in it. And righteousness is permitted to reside with God. Which is great...Did you know that a saved spirit gets a new body to reside in heaven with. Like its not just wispy spirits floating around

It didn't make a whole lot of sense to me neither nwr. I remember the first time I tripped across Corintians 2:14. It talks of things not making sense....and why.Then I remembered "seek and you shall find"And it is there....I know I bang on about Romans alot but it fits. You have the Gospels - 4 of them. Accounts of the life and works of the person who was sent to save man. Then Acts: the description of the beginnings of Christianity - the very beginnings of the 'movement' he established to acccomplish his goal - sowing the seed as it were. Then Romans: the detailed description of the mechanics of the gospel - the 'methodology' of the workings of his methodRomans is the place to look if you are like me - technically minded. And one theme comes across throughout. Contrast. Contrast between one position and another. Read it with that thought in mind. Contrast between Christian and non-Christian (in Gods eyes not mans labels). Contrast all the way.You will see spirit unrighteous in there alright.(and if you were feeling particulary brave/humble you might ask Him to help you read it. "Lord, help me understand" is a prayer that will be heard - even if YOU don't really believe it in your heart. That's just the way it is)

Ex-Christian? I would have thought that was a logical impossibility. Like saying someone is an ex-father or ex-human being.But that's another threads work.Note to AdminBrian. will scoot. Sorry about dragging things OT