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Author Topic:   I'm trying: a stairway to heaven?
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 15 of 303 (255468)
10-29-2005 9:05 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Legend
10-29-2005 8:41 AM


Re: Love with all your heart
Legend writes:
iano writes:
And if it was "the best we could do at the time" then.....whats excluded? Who on earth would warrant a place in Hell?
People who don't even bother trying, I'd imagine.
Great answer and one I'd like to expand on. I would think that it would include those who do intentional evil, particularly those who do evil in God's name. Some examples would be those that are supporting the "In Defense of Marriage Act" and other similar legislation. The actual voters might well be forgiven since they are simply ignorant of the harm being done but the ministers of God that are promoting such behavior will surely be judged harshly.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Legend, posted 10-29-2005 8:41 AM Legend has not replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 192 of 303 (257483)
11-07-2005 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by purpledawn
11-07-2005 11:46 AM


On Intent
IMHO, yes, your description is both pertinent and correct.
The issue of works seems to revolve far more around why things are done then what is done. If you do good to be known as a dogooder or to earn praise or respect, then the praise or respect you get here on earth is all that will be returned. If you do good to earn Salvation, then you will find that it cannot be purchased at any price.
It is also very appropriate to the issue of trying as opposed to succeeding.
The daughter failed, but she made the effort. The fact that she tried to help the person IMHO is the important point and would be regarded as living up to the Two Great Commandments.
She has "Loved others as she loves herself." She put herself in the position of the stranger and tried to act as she would like others to act if she had been the one out of gas. And that action is in itself, loving GOD.
The Elder failed miserably. The fear of the stranger returning later to steal gas is simply posthoc rationalization. The Elder never followed the Commandment and asked himself, "If I were the one out of gas, how would I like to be treated?" He failed there and by doing so failed to love GOD.
I believe that the daughter would definitely fall among the Righteous based on her attempt, the fact that she tried.
I disagree though about the Elder. While I believe that it's likely that such behavior would be forgiven during any judgement, it would certainly count as demerits and would be weighed in the balance against the rest of the Elders life.
I would ask you to consider two other possible scenarios.
First, if after leaving the Elder's house, the stranger walked over to another farm house, one owned by an Atheist, who behaved just as the daughter did.
Second, instead of the owner of the third house being an Atheist, suppose he was a Muslim? If a Muslim behaved exactly as the daughter did, what effect would it have on your analysis?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by purpledawn, posted 11-07-2005 11:46 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by purpledawn, posted 11-07-2005 1:34 PM jar has not replied
 Message 195 by iano, posted 11-08-2005 5:46 AM jar has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 203 of 303 (257745)
11-08-2005 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 202 by iano
11-08-2005 8:45 AM


Re: On Intent
Okay, so she is in the same boat as the elder. Sometimes doing as Jesus said, sometimes not. Both able to repent and be forgiven their sin. Obviously only a believer can do that. A person who doesn't believe in God won't think they are sinning so won't ask forgiveness
Nonsense.
There is nothing that I know of that would keep an Atheist from being sorry that he did something and trying to do better in the future. The issue of forgiveness will only come up during judgement when the sum total of the persons behavior is considered.
The issue in all of these examples is not belief, not profession, not even acknowledging the existence of GOD, but behavior. What the person does. Do they try to do right.
It is NOT simply a case of asking for forgiveness. It's not a assurance that all will automatically be forgiven.
Christiantity is NOT a get out of Hell Free card.
Repentance is more than just an acknowledgement that you screwed up. It is a multistep process.
  1. recognize that you screwed up.
  2. acknowledge that you screwed up.
  3. feel sorry that you screwed up.
  4. make a commitment to try to do better in the future.
  5. actually try to do better in the future.
Those are the necessary steps in repentance. Nothing in there about asking for forgiveness. Forgiveness enters the discussion at only one point and is very much dependant on all five of the conditions for repentance.
Forgiviness is very much time dependant. It is of importance ONLY at the moment of judgement. That's it in a nutshell.
Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus and members of other religious groups make the request for forgiveness a regular part of their theology. But there is nothing that says that forgiveness need be part of the ongoing process. It can be done in bulk at the moment of judgement, and regardless of what we might believe, in reality it is only at the moment of judgement that we will know what the results really are.
But the five steps involved in repentance are by their very nature, part of each persons ongoing life. They must happen on a day to day basis. Each person needs to examine their behavior, their intent, and based on that examination, try to change and modify that behaviour.
It is that effort that is essential, that process. It does not matter what one believes. The Atheist who follows those five steps will be more righteous than the Christian that does not.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by iano, posted 11-08-2005 8:45 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by iano, posted 11-08-2005 11:52 AM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 207 of 303 (257773)
11-08-2005 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 206 by iano
11-08-2005 11:52 AM


Re: On Intent
Any biblical basis for the ideas in your post Jar? Especially the whole idea of trying.
We've been over this time and time again.
Yes there is a Biblical Basis, it's implied throughout the Bible as well as in all of the Creeds and other material that is the foundation of Christianity.
It is inherent in the concept of GOD and of man.
Let's return to the beginning once again.
Is GOD stupid?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by iano, posted 11-08-2005 11:52 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by iano, posted 11-08-2005 12:22 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 210 of 303 (257779)
11-08-2005 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by iano
11-08-2005 12:22 PM


Re: On Intent
Don't think that is an answer. May be wrong.
Is GOD stupid?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by iano, posted 11-08-2005 12:22 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by iano, posted 11-08-2005 12:45 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 213 of 303 (257788)
11-08-2005 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 212 by iano
11-08-2005 12:45 PM


Re: On Intent
Do you believe GOD is vainglorious?
This message has been edited by jar, 11-08-2005 11:54 AM

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by iano, posted 11-08-2005 12:45 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by iano, posted 11-08-2005 12:56 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 215 of 303 (257793)
11-08-2005 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by iano
11-08-2005 12:56 PM


Re: On Intent
Okay, GOD is neither stupid not vainglorious.
Now, do you see any problems with what I posted in Message 203?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by iano, posted 11-08-2005 12:56 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by iano, posted 11-08-2005 1:17 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 217 of 303 (257802)
11-08-2005 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 216 by iano
11-08-2005 1:17 PM


Re: On Intent
Try reading the rest of Romans and maybe even the rest of the manual.
When you return perhaps we can walk through Message 203 together.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by iano, posted 11-08-2005 1:17 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by iano, posted 11-09-2005 5:18 AM jar has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 247 of 303 (258491)
11-10-2005 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by iano
11-10-2005 12:42 PM


have you given up on discussing post 203?
or do you agree that Message 203 is a valid description of what is needed for repentance?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by iano, posted 11-10-2005 12:42 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 251 by iano, posted 11-10-2005 2:06 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 252 of 303 (258525)
11-10-2005 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 251 by iano
11-10-2005 2:06 PM


Re: have you given up on discussing post 203?
So you agree with all of the steps invoved in repentance?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by iano, posted 11-10-2005 2:06 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by iano, posted 11-10-2005 2:17 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 258 of 303 (258535)
11-10-2005 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by iano
11-10-2005 2:17 PM


Re: have you given up on discussing post 203?
okay.
Now is there anything in the isue of repentance that mentions, requires or suggests the need for belief or the profession of belief?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by iano, posted 11-10-2005 2:17 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by iano, posted 11-10-2005 2:33 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 262 of 303 (258540)
11-10-2005 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 260 by iano
11-10-2005 2:33 PM


Re: have you given up on discussing post 203?
that has nothing to do with the current discussion. We are discussing repentance.
Is there anything in the process of repentance that requires, suggests or contains the belief or profession of belief in GOD?
This message has been edited by jar, 11-10-2005 01:48 PM

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by iano, posted 11-10-2005 2:33 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by iano, posted 11-10-2005 2:49 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 268 of 303 (258550)
11-10-2005 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 266 by iano
11-10-2005 2:49 PM


Re: have you given up on discussing post 203?
Is there any other form of repentance? Can I repent for someone else?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by iano, posted 11-10-2005 2:49 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 271 by iano, posted 11-10-2005 2:54 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 273 of 303 (258562)
11-10-2005 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 271 by iano
11-10-2005 2:54 PM


Re: have you given up on discussing post 203?
Is that actually correct?
Is not the first example repenting and the other examples confession?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by iano, posted 11-10-2005 2:54 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 292 by iano, posted 11-11-2005 1:12 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 293 of 303 (258863)
11-11-2005 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 292 by iano
11-11-2005 1:12 PM


Re: have you given up on discussing post 203?
Can you "...turn from sin and dedicate oneself to the amendment of one's life..." externally?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by iano, posted 11-11-2005 1:12 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 294 by iano, posted 11-11-2005 1:18 PM jar has replied

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