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Author Topic:   Evolution and Specialness of Humanity
zephyr
Member (Idle past 4540 days)
Posts: 821
From: FOB Taji, Iraq
Joined: 04-22-2003


Message 301 of 316 (255321)
10-28-2005 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 298 by mike the wiz
10-28-2005 9:37 AM


Re: Charlie, why won't you answer this question?
Indoctrination is a beeyatch, yo.
Most people never realize the full extent to which our perception and thinking is shaped by inherent assumptions and explicit instructions received in our upbringing. They are powerful forces, not least because they are so difficult to even recognize once ingrained in the worldview. At least the average person in this kind of place is usually thinking on a level where those concepts are recognized and dealt with.
Sounding like you, especially the lucid and well-grounded MtW that you are lately, is a compliment to me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by mike the wiz, posted 10-28-2005 9:37 AM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 303 by mike the wiz, posted 10-28-2005 12:36 PM zephyr has replied
 Message 308 by nator, posted 10-29-2005 5:41 PM zephyr has not replied

zephyr
Member (Idle past 4540 days)
Posts: 821
From: FOB Taji, Iraq
Joined: 04-22-2003


Message 302 of 316 (255325)
10-28-2005 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 299 by Phat
10-28-2005 10:12 AM


Re: Charlie, why won't you answer this question?
Are you aware of any other demonstrable basis for belief? As a semi-ignorant layman, I suggest the following life cycle for beliefs:
- start with initial state of infant brain (some predispositions, etc)
- sensory input acquired
- internal processing begins - brain processes/synthesizes data based on a simple rule-set contained in its initial wiring, stores data and somewhat reshapes itself; resulting patterns of neuron activity manifest themselves as "beliefs"
- brain continues acquiring input and synthesizing "beliefs" until the body fails to provide sufficient life support; brain ceases to function; "beliefs" terminate
I would also suggest that in this scenario, to address your terms, "inputs" (as I use it) would be a superset of your "experience", and would include the intake of ideas through the ears and eyes, where the brain responds to learned symbols in a conditioned manner. "Human wisdom" would have to be divided into two categories: any wisdom held to be common to all humans - a perfect example being "eternity in the hearts of men" et cetera - would be considered an initial condition of the brain. Learned "wisdom" acquired from others would fall under sensory input (see above) unless a mechanism could be found by which data enters the brain without being sensed by the body.
If I sound biased against the possibility of revelation, it's because hindsight shows me that every perceived semblance thereof was perfectly well explained by the operation of known mechanisms such as and blind guesswork confirmed by conditioning and ingrained doctrine. (oh no, that sounds suspiciously like RM/NS) Ditto for every instance claimed by another, at least those where I possess enough data to make an informed judgment. I stick with Occam and I find him quite trustworthy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 299 by Phat, posted 10-28-2005 10:12 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 306 by Phat, posted 10-28-2005 4:36 PM zephyr has replied

mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4750
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 303 of 316 (255342)
10-28-2005 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 301 by zephyr
10-28-2005 10:47 AM


Re: Charlie, why won't you answer this question?
Sounding like you, especially the lucid and well-grounded MtW that you are lately, is a compliment to me
Aww.. shucks folks I'm speechless. *kicks dirt*
Most people never realize the full extent to which our perception and thinking is shaped by inherent assumptions and explicit instructions received in our upbringing
Excellent point. I read about memes and the effects they can have on the young mind. Fertile soil for weeds. I think also it can be hard to recognize the "outside" objective refutations of one's own position. The more one educates one's self, and accepts an educational refutation of one's own position, the more it can get easier to recognize memes, IMHO.
Formerly, I regarded my arguments in an absolute context, and I would not allow anyone to refute me, otherwise that would, to my mind, put my faith in jeapordy.
Don't know if I spelt jeapordy correctly, which might spoil my text. *Frustration*.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 301 by zephyr, posted 10-28-2005 10:47 AM zephyr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 304 by zephyr, posted 10-28-2005 1:33 PM mike the wiz has not replied

zephyr
Member (Idle past 4540 days)
Posts: 821
From: FOB Taji, Iraq
Joined: 04-22-2003


Message 304 of 316 (255358)
10-28-2005 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 303 by mike the wiz
10-28-2005 12:36 PM


Re: Charlie, why won't you answer this question?
"Jeopardy"
don't worry about it though
I've seen people try to argue that memes don't exist. Think it's kind of funny that you can try to deny the existence of something that was simply coined to describe mundane, everyday phenomena. Talk about a stupid meme....
anyway, I'm about to bail, but I'm glad to be getting back into some entertaining discussions here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 303 by mike the wiz, posted 10-28-2005 12:36 PM mike the wiz has not replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 305 of 316 (255374)
10-28-2005 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 300 by mike the wiz
10-28-2005 10:22 AM


I personally think it's unknowable.~~Wiz
this will have to wait till Im fully awake, Mike. Im just so darn tired, today

This message is a reply to:
 Message 300 by mike the wiz, posted 10-28-2005 10:22 AM mike the wiz has not replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 306 of 316 (255375)
10-28-2005 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 302 by zephyr
10-28-2005 11:12 AM


Cognitive Origins
a lucid and well thought-out reply, Zephyr! I don't have the same thought patterns that you have, so I may meditate on this a bit. I believe that the Creator started it all, but I can't provide any solid evidence of that belief. Maybe later, after my nap.
Ken Jennings would be proud of the jeopardy reference, BTW!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 302 by zephyr, posted 10-28-2005 11:12 AM zephyr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 307 by zephyr, posted 10-29-2005 12:17 PM Phat has not replied

zephyr
Member (Idle past 4540 days)
Posts: 821
From: FOB Taji, Iraq
Joined: 04-22-2003


Message 307 of 316 (255476)
10-29-2005 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 306 by Phat
10-28-2005 4:36 PM


Re: Cognitive Origins
cool.
I've always found your perspective interesting, so I'd love to hear your thoughts on this one.
Not sure how much life is left in this thread, though. It seems to be running long and slowing down. Kinda like watching Titanic....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 306 by Phat, posted 10-28-2005 4:36 PM Phat has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2160 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 308 of 316 (255512)
10-29-2005 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 301 by zephyr
10-28-2005 10:47 AM


Re: Charlie, why won't you answer this question?
quote:
Most people never realize the full extent to which our perception and thinking is shaped by inherent assumptions and explicit instructions received in our upbringing. They are powerful forces, not least because they are so difficult to even recognize once ingrained in the worldview. At least the average person in this kind of place is usually thinking on a level where those concepts are recognized and dealt with.
I completely agree.
...except that many people, even here, think they are not influenced by culture in certain arenas.
I had a discussion was a couple of people about standards of beauty in the US.
Several otherwise more or less rational people actually declared that anyone who internalizes the unrealistic female standard of beauty that is fed to us in a very constant diet from the time we are born, is stupid, and that parents should be able to combat the entire culture in the raising of children within that culture.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 301 by zephyr, posted 10-28-2005 10:47 AM zephyr has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 309 by crashfrog, posted 10-29-2005 5:46 PM nator has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1457 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 309 of 316 (255514)
10-29-2005 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 308 by nator
10-29-2005 5:41 PM


Re: Charlie, why won't you answer this question?
Several otherwise more or less rational people actually declared that anyone who internalizes the unrealistic female standard of beauty that is fed to us in a very constant diet from the time we are born, is stupid, and that parents should be able to combat the entire culture in the raising of children within that culture.
Not to mention the people that completely dismiss, on the basis of no evidence, the idea that their culture confers upon them privilege based on race, privileges that become invisible because they are taken for granted or assumed to not be privileges at all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 308 by nator, posted 10-29-2005 5:41 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 310 by nator, posted 10-29-2005 5:49 PM crashfrog has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2160 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 310 of 316 (255516)
10-29-2005 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 309 by crashfrog
10-29-2005 5:46 PM


Re: Charlie, why won't you answer this question?
Shut up, cracker.
This message has been edited by schrafinator, 10-29-2005 05:50 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 309 by crashfrog, posted 10-29-2005 5:46 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 311 by crashfrog, posted 10-29-2005 6:05 PM nator has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1457 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 311 of 316 (255518)
10-29-2005 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 310 by nator
10-29-2005 5:49 PM


Re: Charlie, why won't you answer this question?
Sorry, I get chatty around fat broads.
Kidding!
More seriously, I don't know how you would do about discerning all the biases that culture packs us full of; thus, I find the people who claim not to be biased somewhat ridiculous.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 310 by nator, posted 10-29-2005 5:49 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 312 by nator, posted 10-29-2005 6:38 PM crashfrog has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2160 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 312 of 316 (255523)
10-29-2005 6:38 PM
Reply to: Message 311 by crashfrog
10-29-2005 6:05 PM


Re: Charlie, why won't you answer this question?
quote:
Sorry, I get chatty around fat broads.
Kidding!
Oooh, lame, cracker, really lame.
quote:
More seriously, I don't know how you would do about discerning all the biases that culture packs us full of; thus, I find the people who claim not to be biased somewhat ridiculous.
Well, right.
I mean, I know things intellectually, but my feelings about those samethings don't care much about facts.
We KNOW that undeweight women are unhealthy, and we KNOW that taking steroids to get that sixpack is unhealthy, but since when do we care about health when corporate definitions of beauty are concerned?
Like, I KNOW I am at a healthy weight right now.
But I would FEEL so much better about my appearence if I lost another 10-15 pounds.
The more I look like my culture tessl me I am supposed to look, (and many actual people tell me how great I look the more weight I lose) the better I feel about myself.
I was quite healthy 10 pounds heavier, too. My doctor never said a word to me about the weight, the blood pressure and cholesterol and cardio fitness were all great.
It's all cultural pressure, and it is difficult to deal with, even for me, someone who understands it completely. I'm still vulnerable.
This message has been edited by schrafinator, 10-29-2005 06:42 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 311 by crashfrog, posted 10-29-2005 6:05 PM crashfrog has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 313 by NosyNed, posted 10-29-2005 7:26 PM nator has replied

NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 313 of 316 (255533)
10-29-2005 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 312 by nator
10-29-2005 6:38 PM


Scraf, why don't you change the subtopic title?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 312 by nator, posted 10-29-2005 6:38 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 314 by nator, posted 10-29-2005 8:07 PM NosyNed has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2160 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 314 of 316 (255540)
10-29-2005 8:07 PM
Reply to: Message 313 by NosyNed
10-29-2005 7:26 PM


Re: Scraf, why don't you change the subtopic title?
haha, that's funny

This message is a reply to:
 Message 313 by NosyNed, posted 10-29-2005 7:26 PM NosyNed has not replied

ohnhai
Member (Idle past 5152 days)
Posts: 649
From: Melbourne, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2004


Message 315 of 316 (255550)
10-29-2005 9:26 PM


and we wait for the curtain to come down on this thread....
Gonna be closed soon.... is it worth a new thread on the preasures of society and your peer group in beliefs and the reticence to give them up?

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