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Author Topic:   I'm trying: a stairway to heaven?
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 16 of 303 (255475)
10-29-2005 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
10-29-2005 7:33 AM


Re: So Heaven is not about trying?
mrx writes:
Fixed your typos.
TEP....is that a fundi by another name
mrx writes:
As I mentioned in another thread, you seem to be contradicting yourself here..."Works subsequent to receiving the Holy Spirit don't have damnatory value." vs. "Whilst the wages of sin is death being something earned -- wages in the form of damnation."
It would be contrdictory if it weren't for the fact that there are two types of people contrasted all the time. Those in Christ vs. those not in Christ.
Those in Adam (where all were born), should they die in that position, receive the wages for their sin.
Those in Christ (born again) don't receive the wages of sin - because he received the wages instead of the them. And because the penalty has been paid, those in Christ are free men. Guiltless thus Righteous. There is nothing preventing God doing what he wants to do...adopting them as sons.
mrx writes:
Looking at the damnation by failing side of the debate, if indeed works subsequent to receiving the Holy Spirit don't have damnatory value, then how can the wages of sin be something earned?
They are earned - Jesus takes the punishment. If I sin as a Christian my sin is taken by Christ on the cross. Which is, as you would imagine it, a strong motivation not to sin or as Pauls language at the start of Romans 6 goes "How can you even consider continuing in sin!!??"
mrx writes:
I'll maintain what I've been saying all along: We can do nothing to 'earn' our salvation. In fact, we have to do nothing -- nothing more than be docile to the motion of the Holy Spirit. God will do the work for us if we are simply open to his Spirit.
Whilst I agree that we can do nothing to earn our salvation - it is all of God - we don't get it by default either. Damnation is the default positon - we are all born in Adam
iano writes:
John 16:8 - And when he (the Holy Spirit) has come, he will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment
The Spirit does draw and convict (or convince) men of their need of salvation. He shows them their sin. He holds up the impossible standard of the law for example and lets man see just how far he falls short of it. When a man yields to the call (however long it takes) he will come to see himself as God sees him: a hopeless, bankrupt sinner - up to his neck in it no matter how good he may appear by world standards. He will realise his position that nothing he can do will change that and that the wages of his sin will be death and Hell. He will see that this, whilst undesirable, is a completely merited and just decision on Gods part....
iano writes:
Important Note: this process of yielding to the Spirits workings is not a conscious one in the sense that the person is aware of the Spirit as anything to do with God. It comes from situations in everyday life: heart response when doing bad stuff: doing it, not being able to help doing it but heart hating doing it all the while. Finding ones own actions, thoughts, words etc to be somehow rotten...even if another part enjoys the thrill. If there is a war going on inside... then that's the Holy Spirit convicting of sin
......He can only cry out for mercy and assuming he does that, mercy he will receive. It is at that point that, amongst other things to do with salvation, the Holy Spirit comes to dwell in the man. It is at that point he becomes saved.
Or he can resist this call, ignore it, fight against it, deny it, grieve the Spirit. He can commit the only sin that God can't forgive: the refusal of Gods offer to forgive all...by own free will
iano writes:
Before salvation: Holy Spirit convincing
At salvation: Holy Spirit taking up residence
mrx writes:
When we fail it's our own fault -- because we've resisted God's Spirit. When we succeed we give glory to God -- because we have been moved by God's Spirit to do so. I don't think I can make this any simpler -- and I think it's plainly evident all throughout the Scripture.
I agree. But people who have the Spirit are saved. That's when the Spirit moves in. And only then. The work being done by the Spirit once in, is sanctifying work not salvation work. All of Pauls talk about doing this, that and the other "by the Spirit" is addressed to Christians...those that are saved. His talk of good works has nothing to do with salvation - for there is "no condemnation for those that are in Christ Jesus"
You cannot be a Christian if you have not the Holy Spirits indwelling
You cannot be a Christian if you haven't been saved.
Irrespective of 'denomination' which has nothing at all to do with it, you cannot be a Christian if you have not been born again (although you don't necessarily have to realise you've been born again to be a Christian)
In Christ/not in Christ - that is the question.
This message has been edited by iano, 29-Oct-2005 05:08 PM
This message has been edited by iano, 29-Oct-2005 05:11 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-29-2005 7:33 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Brian, posted 10-29-2005 12:28 PM iano has replied
 Message 26 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-29-2005 3:09 PM iano has replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 17 of 303 (255477)
10-29-2005 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by iano
10-29-2005 12:08 PM


Re: So Heaven is not about trying?
Hi Ian,
There is nothing preventing God doing what he wants to do..
Does this include welcoming an atheist into heaven?
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by iano, posted 10-29-2005 12:08 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by iano, posted 10-29-2005 12:43 PM Brian has replied
 Message 55 by macaroniandcheese, posted 10-31-2005 5:54 PM Brian has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 18 of 303 (255479)
10-29-2005 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Legend
10-29-2005 8:41 AM


Re: Love with all your heart
Legend writes:
Jesus doesn't say he'll measure you against his standard of love or any other's standard of love. He doesn't say that it's impossible to love God and your neighbour.
Which part of the word 'Command' do you not understand? Jesus said love God and love neighbour. Lets see what love means..
Love is patient; love is kind; love is not envious or boastful or arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice in wrongdoing, but rejoices in the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends
Patently our version of love is a bit hit and miss compared to Gods standard.
"With all our heart, soul and mind". Reading it as "with all the heart, soul and mind I happen to have in any given situation" is reading something that isn't there. It's just an escape hatch. When a sharp word trips from our lips, how much did we struggle beforehand not to let it trip. Often not even the slightest bit of heart, soul and mind. Very often in fact we relish seeing it cut and hurt.
Just follow the commandments to the best of your ability. It's simple.
Best of your ability is not in the bible. "Love your neighbour as yourself" is a command. There is neither heart/soul/mind nor any other clause that can be seen to diminish the command as being total. Do you love you neighbour as yourself? Well do you punk?
People who don't even bother trying, I'd imagine. I know a few of those.
Surely there has been an occasion in your life when you broke a commandment and didn't put the least bit of struggle in to avoiding breaking it. If so you have broken the commandment given. And...
"He who follows the law but stumbles on even the smallest part is guilty of breaking all of it"
Seems a pretty impossible standard to me Legend

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Legend, posted 10-29-2005 8:41 AM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by ringo, posted 10-29-2005 1:21 PM iano has replied
 Message 43 by Legend, posted 10-30-2005 2:53 PM iano has replied
 Message 44 by Legend, posted 10-30-2005 5:05 PM iano has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 19 of 303 (255481)
10-29-2005 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Brian
10-29-2005 12:28 PM


Re: So Heaven is not about trying?
Brian writes:
Does this include welcoming an atheist into heaven?
Aah...the old 'haul it out of context' ploy. I'm honoured...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Brian, posted 10-29-2005 12:28 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Brian, posted 10-29-2005 12:45 PM iano has replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 20 of 303 (255482)
10-29-2005 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by iano
10-29-2005 12:43 PM


Re: So Heaven is not about trying?
Not a ploy, just a simple question.
Hope its not an old reliable Christian dodge the question ploy though.
A yes or no will suffice thanks.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by iano, posted 10-29-2005 12:43 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by iano, posted 10-29-2005 12:57 PM Brian has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 21 of 303 (255483)
10-29-2005 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by purpledawn
10-28-2005 11:26 AM


Re: Damnation
Purpledawn writes:
Out of curiosity, what do you consider damnation to be?
Sorry about the delay in replying PD, mixed grape with a relatively tiny amount of grain last evening and I ain't feeling all that good..
Damnation?
Separation from Gods love (this would includes all the great aspects of life he gives to the righteous and the unrighteous alike through his providence: relationship, joy, happiness etc) as well as separation from the kind of love that will be available for those who finally get to meet him
Exposure to Gods wrath - terifying
I think the worst aspect will be the knowledge the person will carry for eternity is that it didn't need to be this way. Eternally hating oneself for getting oneself into the situation
I don't think there'll be any fires burning - it's just a picture of how horrible it will be

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by purpledawn, posted 10-28-2005 11:26 AM purpledawn has not replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 22 of 303 (255485)
10-29-2005 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Brian
10-29-2005 12:45 PM


Re: So Heaven is not about trying?
No

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Brian, posted 10-29-2005 12:45 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Brian, posted 10-29-2005 1:01 PM iano has replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 23 of 303 (255486)
10-29-2005 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by iano
10-29-2005 12:57 PM


We had to agree sometime
Cheers,
I knew we would agree about something sooner or later.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by iano, posted 10-29-2005 12:57 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by iano, posted 10-29-2005 1:10 PM Brian has not replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 24 of 303 (255488)
10-29-2005 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Brian
10-29-2005 1:01 PM


Re: We had to agree sometime
A seed of agreement. Lets hope it becomes a...er...Flood
L8r dude. My hangover is pounding away and each keystroke just adds to it. "Enough already" as our Yankee buddies might say

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Brian, posted 10-29-2005 1:01 PM Brian has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 25 of 303 (255489)
10-29-2005 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by iano
10-29-2005 12:40 PM


iano writes:
Which part of the word 'Command' do you not understand?
It seems that you are the one who doesn't understand the word "command".
Allow me to refer you back to your (failed) analogy in Message 9: The soldiers who went over the top did obey the command. Even the ones who failed to reach their objective did obey the command.
Obedience is not about 100% success. Never was. Never will be. Obedience is about doing your best.
That's what soldiers get medals for. That's what we get rewards in heaven for.

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by iano, posted 10-29-2005 12:40 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by iano, posted 10-30-2005 1:02 PM ringo has replied

Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1336 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 26 of 303 (255494)
10-29-2005 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by iano
10-29-2005 12:08 PM


Re: So Heaven is not about trying?
A few simple questions.
Did Adam go to hell?
What do you feel was the end result of original sin?
Do you believe the "Spirit of God" referenced in the Hebrew Scriptures (aka Old Testament) is a reference to the Holy Spirit?
What happens to babies if they die before they believe or know Jesus?
How were the Israelites of the Hebrew Scriptures saved from the damnation of hell if they didn't know Christ yet?
If Jesus indeed takes on the wages of sin for us, does this also mean that he'll endure our hangovers for us too.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by iano, posted 10-29-2005 12:08 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Brian, posted 10-29-2005 4:44 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied
 Message 41 by iano, posted 10-30-2005 1:23 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has not replied

Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1336 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 27 of 303 (255497)
10-29-2005 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by jar
10-29-2005 9:05 AM


Re: Love with all your heart
...or maybe not.
But that's another thread, isn't it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by jar, posted 10-29-2005 9:05 AM jar has not replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 28 of 303 (255502)
10-29-2005 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
10-29-2005 3:09 PM


Different deals
What happens to babies if they die before they believe or know Jesus?
They'll burn in Hell, if Xians want to steal another people's God then they need to accept Him warts and all.
How were the Israelites of the Hebrew Scriptures saved from the damnation of hell if they didn't know Christ yet?
The Israelites would be under the Old Covenant, while Christ offered a new salvic path under the conditions of the New Covenant.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-29-2005 3:09 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-29-2005 6:32 PM Brian has replied

Jackie
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 303 (255520)
10-29-2005 6:25 PM


Atheists will be welcome in heaven.
Babies don't go to hell ( there is no hell), I think most Christians are more progressive then that, this day and age.
If there is a God he will have to forgive us all because we are all imperfect.

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Chiroptera, posted 10-29-2005 6:31 PM Jackie has replied
 Message 39 by Brian, posted 10-30-2005 9:10 AM Jackie has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 303 (255521)
10-29-2005 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Jackie
10-29-2005 6:25 PM


quote:
If there is a God he will have to forgive us all because we are all imperfect.
Actually, an omnipotent god can do anything he wants, which is why I find it amusing when evangelicals try to tell us what god is going or not going to do.

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Jackie, posted 10-29-2005 6:25 PM Jackie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Jackie, posted 10-30-2005 8:46 AM Chiroptera has not replied
 Message 47 by iano, posted 10-31-2005 4:33 PM Chiroptera has replied

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