I'm trying: a stairway to heaven?

Hi Ian, Does this include welcoming an atheist into heaven?Brian.

Not a ploy, just a simple question.Hope its not an old reliable Christian dodge the question ploy though.A yes or no will suffice thanks.Brian.

Cheers,I knew we would agree about something sooner or later.Brian.

They'll burn in Hell, if Xians want to steal another people's God then they need to accept Him warts and all. The Israelites would be under the Old Covenant, while Christ offered a new salvic path under the conditions of the New Covenant.Brian.

Hi X Who mentioned 'Hell' in the OT?You are talking present tense, you said 'happens' not 'happened'. So you are obviously talking about after the birth of Christ as you mention Him in your example. Thus, children, or anyone else for that matter, who were born before the birth of Christ had to have some other salvic path. They couldn't be 'saved' by an option that wasn't yet available to them. But, this idea of salvation is sometimes far different in the OT than it is in the NT, it is normally deliverance from a natural disaster, or from an oppressing nation, it is more of an historical salvation. But, there is eschatological salvation in the OT, however it is not that clear. There appears to be two different types of ES, one is the establishment of peace and co-operation between all nations (Isaiah 2:2-4, and Micah 4:1-4, the other is at the end of history (apocolyptic)where God will dispose of His enemies and reward the faithful.In the context of the Xian Bible, hell is a Xian concept, and according to Xianity people who do not embrace the Lord Jesus will end up there. The comment about accpeting Him warts and all is a reminder that Yahweh is a jealous assed God, if you don't worship Him and play by His rules He isn't going to hesitate in condemning you. So, accept that Yahweh is not this old fluffy grandad with a conscience, He is a vengeful, warrior God who has fought many battles alongside the Israelites. Xians have adopted this Semite god, a wrathful, jealous god, then they want to change His nature because they cannot cope with a god who would condemn what they see as an innocent baby! The OT is quite clear about what happens if you do not follow God's conditions, He has no hesitation in squashing you.Anyway, why use a baby as an example, why not use a 55 year old severly mentally handicapped man who doesn't have the capacity to understand the gospel? Oh, of course he will not go to hell because it doesn't fit with what you want God to be. What is the problem with accepting that Yahweh is a jealous God who has throughout OT 'history' happily muredered men, women, and children, do you have a problem with worshipping a God who is like that? Well, all of these, plus quite a few others are part of the 'Old Covenant'. I was using 'covenent' in its simplest sense where the word for 'covenant', berit means "relationship". (Lutterworth Dictionary of the Bible(1994, W.E. Mills (ed), Cambridge, p.181.)Christians apparently have a new relationship with God, a new covenant. This is why we have a collection of texts called the New Testament. The word 'testament' in this context is the Latin word that was chosen as a translation of the biblical idea of 'covenant', in this context the word 'covenant' is taken as being an agreement between two people or parties (Reading the Old Testament, an Introduction (1984), Lawrence Boadt, Paulist Press, New York, p.19). So, the covenants with Abraham, Moses, et al, are all part of the old relationship (covenant) that God had with His people. Well, it isn't found explicity, but one day it will be the old covenant. The Jews do not have an "old covenant" because they are still enjoying the same one, but there will be a Jewish "new covenant" one day.Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel, all talk about a future covenant with Yahweh. (Isiah 61:8, Jeremiah 31:31-33, 32:40, Ezekiel 34:25, 37:26). This would be the most accurate approach.Brian.

Hi Jackie, Why? God is a jealous God, see what He did to the Israelites during the period of the Judges when they didn't give Him full respect. Great, no reason to live a good life then? So, I can look forward to sharing heaven with Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin, Marquie de Sade, and all the other evil humans that have ever lived?If we will all be saved, why did Jesus have a three hour extravaganza on a cross?Brian.

yahweh is an egocentric prick. Does He (you really should use a capital 'H')?So, what gives you the impression that God forgives 'whom he desires'?Brian.

You really should read the whole of the first chapter, it clearly states that those who will be saved shall believe in Christ. Apparently, they are already picked, but they will accept the Gospel before they die. It is nothng to do with God being a 'cool dude', it is a grammatical point based on the fact that when talking about a monotheistic faith there is only one God.Brian.

No it isn't. It is quite obvious that early 'Judaism' (which in this case is anachronistic) was polytheistic. It was never 'henotheistic' because the Isralietes in the premonarchic period did actually acknowledge that other people worshipped others gods. Henotheism means that they would worship one God whilst not denying that other gods existed. it was clearly monolartristic.Jewish polytheism evolved into monotheism, which is relevant to what I claim. Judaism is a monotheistic religion, hence a capital 'H' is required as a grammatical rule. You are about 3000 years out of date with this statement. Why? Where does the Bible claim that Satan or angels are gods? Nor mine, but to be grammatically correct is a different matter.This is interesting: He really is such a cool dude that He:Joshua 10:11 (New International Version) As they fled before Israel on the road down from Beth Horon to Azekah, the LORD hurled large hailstones down on them from the sky, and more of them died from the hailstones than were killed by the swords of the Israelites.God murders more people than Joshua's armies.Exodus 12:29-30 At midnight the LORD struck down all the firstborn in Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn of the prisoner, who was in the dungeon, and the firstborn of all the livestock as well. 30 Pharaoh and all his officials and all the Egyptians got up during the night, and there was loud wailing in Egypt, for there was not a house without someone dead. Leviticus 26:21-22 " 'If you remain hostile toward me and refuse to listen to me, I will multiply your afflictions seven times over, as your sins deserve. I will send wild animals against you, and they will rob you of your children, destroy your cattle and make you so few in number that your roads will be deserted. Exodus 23:2323 My angel will go ahead of you and bring you into the land of the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Canaanites, Hivites and Jebusites, and I will wipe them out. Do you write letters to serial killers and ask them to marry you?Brian.

We do?What would they be?We do have internal sources that tell of Israelite defeats as well.But, this is an important point, the god (small 'g') that you think is cool, this is not the same god (small 'g') that is mentioned in the Bible?Brian.