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Author Topic:   I'm trying: a stairway to heaven?
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 7 of 303 (255326)
10-28-2005 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by iano
10-27-2005 7:12 AM


Try Not, Do or Do Not
All the examples you shared are very emotion oriented. Being kind to difficult people is very...well...difficult.
The Mosaic Laws, as do our laws, prohibit people from harming one another.
IMO, Jesus was teaching a deeper lesson to his audience at the Sermon on the Mount. He was teaching them to mind their thoughts and words, which can lead to wrong action. Plus we know today that harboring ill feelings, can make us ill.
Trying is nothing more than attempting to do. If you manage 75% of the time during your life to be kind to your "enemies", have you failed because it isn't 100%?
If 85% of the time you treat others the way you want to be treated, have you failed because it isn't 100%?
IMO, if God or Jesus expected us to be successful 100% of the time or else, they wouldn't have spoken of forgiveness.
Mark
11:25
"Whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father who is in heaven will also forgive you your transgressions.
11:26
("But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father who is in heaven forgive your transgressions.")

"I refuse to think of them as chin hairs. I think of them as stray eyebrows." -Janette Barber-

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by iano, posted 10-27-2005 7:12 AM iano has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 8 of 303 (255330)
10-28-2005 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by iano
10-27-2005 7:12 AM


Damnation
Out of curiosity, what do you consider damnation to be?

"I refuse to think of them as chin hairs. I think of them as stray eyebrows." -Janette Barber-

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by iano, posted 10-27-2005 7:12 AM iano has replied

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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 12 of 303 (255463)
10-29-2005 6:37 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by iano
10-28-2005 10:01 PM


Gospel Nutshell
quote:
Which is kind of the gospel in a nutshell...
Nutshell being the operative word here.
Matthew 5:19
Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Least not out.

"I refuse to think of them as chin hairs. I think of them as stray eyebrows." -Janette Barber-

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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 32 of 303 (255524)
10-29-2005 6:39 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
10-29-2005 6:32 PM


Sheol/Hell
quote:
Where is there a reference to "hell" in the Hebrew Scriptures?
Sheol is the equivalent of hell in the OT.
NOTE: Crosswalk.com is an excellent place to do searches in the Bible.

"When women are depressed they either eat or go shopping. Men invade another country." -Elayne Boosler-

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-29-2005 6:32 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 37 of 303 (255593)
10-30-2005 7:24 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by ReverendDG
10-30-2005 1:58 AM


Re: Sheol/Hell
I agree that Sheol is equivalent to Hades, an underworld.
Unfortunately some Bibles translate Sheol as Hell. A Catholic Bible I have translates Sheol as Hell in the OT.
I was giving Mr. Ex a general direction.
I think I'm going to start a thread about Hell not being a place of eternal torment.

"When women are depressed they either eat or go shopping. Men invade another country." -Elayne Boosler-

This message is a reply to:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 139 of 303 (256263)
11-02-2005 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by iano
11-02-2005 5:45 AM


Law and Teachings
IMO you create havoc when you don't deal with the differences in what Jesus taught and what Paul preached and to whom.
In your OP you brought out the "commands" of Jesus.
"Judge not lest you be judged"
"Love your enemy"
"Love God with all your heart soul and mind"
"Love your neighbour as yourself"
Jesus was teaching Jews (the original club) the spirit behind the Mosaic Laws. Getting into the ethics and not just the letter of the law. God did not give an expiration date on the Mosaic Covenant.
Paul was writing to Gentiles, who were not raised with or accountable to the Mosaic Law, and Jews.
quote:
The Christian is no longer under the law. He is freed from law. He cannot come under judgement by the law. He is going to heaven. Period. Everytime he gets stopped speeding, Christ pays his ticket
So let's take the Christians out of the equation. They already have an "in" so they don't need to try or do. The Christian Club has reserved seating no matter what.
Now let's look at what Paul writes in Romans:
2:12-14
For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves
According to Paul the people in the Jewish Club will still be judged by God according to the Mosaic Laws which includes forgiveness which Jesus speaks of in the Book of Mark. See Message 7
Now those who do not have the Mosaic Law are a law unto themselves and will be judged accordingly. Those who sin outside the Mosaic Law will perish outside the Mosaic Law. Since this group instinctively does the things of the Law, then forgiveness is also included. As they forgive, so shall they be forgiven.
And as Paul wrote in Romans:
2:6-10
who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
So while the Christian Club may have reserved seats and an undeserved get-out-of-Hades-free card, the rest of the world does get points (so to speak) for trying because that is what the Mosaic Law and our instinctive law allows. When we miss the mark, we repent, are forgiven and try harder. We learn from our mistakes and eventually succeed. We persevere.

Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission. -Eleanor Roosevelt-

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by iano, posted 11-02-2005 5:45 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by iano, posted 11-02-2005 3:24 PM purpledawn has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 145 of 303 (256297)
11-02-2005 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by iano
11-02-2005 3:24 PM


Re: Law and Teachings
quote:
I think the writing is a bit more universal than that. Jesus came to seek and save the lost.
You're jumpting outside the book. Stick with your OP.
iano OP writes:
I stress 'biblical basis' because what I have heard thus far seems to be result of peoples own ideas as to what Jesus must have meant, ie: people apply their own subjective logic to fill the biblical gaps in making their case for salvation/damnation by works.
It doesn't matter whether you feel they are universal or not. Jesus was speaking to a very specific audience. An audience who adhered to the Mosaic Law. You still have to understand who and what he was teaching.
quote:
Your instinctive law will differ from anothers which is why I was looking for a biblical case.
We aren't talking individual. The Not-In-Christ Club as you put it, I will call it the Secular Club, has their own instictive law, which Paul spoke of. The Secular Club will be judged by their laws.
I provided the scripture that supports that. Address that scripture.
quote:
Trying and failing and trying again is not indicated.
Yes it is. The Forgiveness Factor covers that. The Forgiveness Factor is present in the Mosaic Law and in the Secular Club.
Mt 6:14-15
"For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
"But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.
Again Jesus was speaking to Jews who adhere to the Mosaic Law.
So are you going to consider the commands universal but not the forgiveness?

Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission. -Eleanor Roosevelt-

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by iano, posted 11-02-2005 3:24 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 146 of 303 (256301)
11-02-2005 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by crashfrog
11-02-2005 4:11 PM


Spoiled Kid Scenerio
Doesn't this Christian Club scenerio really sound like the kid whose father always buys his way out of trouble?
Even the OT new better than to spoil a child.
Why avoid trouble is you don't have to pay the price?

Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission. -Eleanor Roosevelt-

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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 161 of 303 (256518)
11-03-2005 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by iano
11-03-2005 11:35 AM


Re: Law and Teachings
Why do you avoid addressing what I present?
I have not stated that try=obey or any of the other nonbiblical comments you refered to. Try means attempting to obey.
Please address my discussion, not everyone elses. You seem to be the one going nonbiblical. We are not discussing whether the Bible is meant for us.
You claim that the way Jesus stated these teachings that they are equivalent to law and must be obeyed without failing. What I have shown you is that they are not part of the Mosaic Law, in that if not achieved one becomes a transgressor.
I have shown that Jesus is teaching the deeper side of Torah, the spirit behind the Law, not commanding. The Sermon on the Mount begins:
Matthew 5:2
He (Jesus) opened His mouth and began to teach them, saying,
Jesus was a teacher, not a law giver and you have not shown me otherwise.
Paul's preaching deals with the actual Mosaic Law. His goal in Romans is different than that of Jesus in the Sermon. It is better to deal with one speaker at a time. Jesus first.
In the Sermon on the Mount Jesus is not teaching about salvation, he is teaching about righteousness. Right behavior.
Jesus taught that as you forgive others, God will forgive you your transgressions. Therefore one can be forgiven their transgressions and be in a righteous state. Now I'm not saying that righteousness guarantees salvation, so don't go there.
Jesus does not intimate that the Mosaic Laws are impossible to follow.
I have no clue what you mean by the goats and google.

Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission. -Eleanor Roosevelt-

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by iano, posted 11-03-2005 11:35 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by iano, posted 11-04-2005 6:09 AM purpledawn has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 169 of 303 (256719)
11-04-2005 7:38 AM
Reply to: Message 168 by iano
11-04-2005 6:09 AM


Re: Law and Teachings
quote:
"The law is a schoolteacher to lead you..." I think using the word 'teacher' to escape out of Jesus expositing the Mosaic law is a little weak. Jesus is also Lord. And Lords are entitled to give laws. And they are entitled to teach those under the law what the law says.
You jumped away from Jesus again.
There is the written Law and the oral Law. Gazing lustfully on a woman is from the oral law. Jesus is teaching, not expounding any new law.
quote:
purpledawn writes:
Jesus does not intimate that the Mosaic Laws are impossible to follow
He didn't have to. Just look at them. The Mosaic laws were a wall. A scaleable wall or so many, especially the Pharisees, but not all, thought. Jesus, in expounding on the law, showed the depth and breadth and height of it. He didn't have to say nor imply it was an impossible wall to scale. He just showed the wall.
Interesting that you can infer that the Mosaic Laws are impossible to follow, but we cannot infer that God will count us righteous for sincerely attempting to obey his laws even though we may fall short once in a while. You have not shown that Jesus considered the laws impossible to obey.
Whereas, I can and have shown you that people were able to follow the laws.
Mt 1:19
And Joseph her husband, being a righteous man and not wanting to disgrace her, planned to send her away secretly.
Lu 1:6
They were both righteous in the sight of God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and requirements of the Lord.
Mt 5:20
"For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
These show that the laws can and were considered to be obeyed. To be able to exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees shows me that there is room to improve, even though they were considered righteous.
Just as our legal system doles out punishment according to the severity of the offense, so did the Jewish legal system. All transgressions were not of equal weight, no matter what Paul says.
Jesus told the rich man exactly what was necessary to enter eternal life.
Mark 10:19
"You know the commandments, 'DO NOT MURDER, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, DO NOT STEAL, DO NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, Do not defraud, HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER.' "
Lu 18:20
"You know the commandments, 'DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, DO NOT MURDER, DO NOT STEAL, DO NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER.' "
19:18-19
Then he said to Him, "Which ones?" And Jesus said, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER; YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY; YOU SHALL NOT STEAL; YOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS; HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER; and YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
quote:
Which reminds me: this thread is about showing "try" not showing "it's not try".
The speed limit on the road here is 55 mph. Whenever I drive I attempt not to exceed the limit. Outside cercumstances cause my speed to vary. Hills, deer, potholes, distraction, etc. Sometimes my speed exceeds the limit by a few mph. Once it goes above the 55 mark, I have failed to obey the speed limit. When I see that I have exceeded, I reduce my speed and am back at the limit.
The examples you gave are emotion based and not cut and dried line items to obey. They can be influenced from outside and inside our bodies. God understands that. Jesus understood that.
That's why the forgiveness factor was built into the law, which even covers unintentional sins, and supports the idea that attempting to do what is right is acceptable.

Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission. -Eleanor Roosevelt-

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by iano, posted 11-04-2005 6:09 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by iano, posted 11-04-2005 3:19 PM purpledawn has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 173 of 303 (256860)
11-04-2005 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by iano
11-04-2005 3:19 PM


Re: Law and Teachings
Apparently you really don't wish to discuss the issue. You are allowed to infer but I am not, so there is no sense in wasting my time to explain when you don't wish to address what I'm saying.
You have shown that you don't really understand the ministry of Jesus or his culture and don't wish to apparently.
You're trying to battle, not explain.
Just don't get to comfy in your club. It may not be such a sure thing.
Romans 11:11
I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous.
Romans 11:21
for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
11:22
Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission. -Eleanor Roosevelt-

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Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by iano, posted 11-05-2005 7:18 AM purpledawn has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 180 of 303 (257028)
11-05-2005 9:13 AM
Reply to: Message 177 by iano
11-05-2005 7:18 AM


Re: Law and Teachings
Matthew 23:13
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to."

Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission. -Eleanor Roosevelt-

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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 182 of 303 (257036)
11-05-2005 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by Legend
11-04-2005 6:04 PM


Eternal Life and Salvation
Hey Legend,
Want to investigate with me? In my dealings with iano on this thread something came to mind. (warning thinking outloud) I think eternal life is something that is dependent on behavior, but salvation isn't. Not sure how to say what I'm thinking. Read minds???
We noted that when Jesus was asked how to obtain or inherit eternal life, he gave a list from the commandments/law. None of which were believing God is one or loving God.
Also we note that the righteous will go to eternal life.
Righteous=observing divine laws
Mt 13:49
"So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous,
Mt 25:46
"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
As I noted in Message 169 there were righteous people before the death of Jesus.
Lu 1:6
They were both righteous in the sight of God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and requirements of the Lord.
Even the Pharisees were considered righteous.
Jesus did not consider everyone to be a sinner.
Mr 2:17
And hearing this, Jesus said to them, "It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick; I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
Salvation=deliverence, safety
In the OT we see God delivering the nation and individuals from their enemies or from difficult circumstances. It wasn't necessarily because they deserved it. Obviously God's choice.
In the story of Zaccheus
19:9
And Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because he, too, is a son of Abraham.
19:10
"For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost."
Jesus saved him from sin in the sense that Zaccheus repented and changed his ways. He was now in a righteous state. Individual salvation.
Jesus came to bring them back to right behavior, which includes learning to repent and ask forgiveness as well as to forgive.
Mt 6:14-15
"For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
"But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.
Repentance is key to returning to a state of righteousness.
So if the synoptics truly provide us with what Jesus said and Jesus spoke the truth, then only the righteous will receive eternal life and the list Jesus gave the rich man is what is necessary to be in a righteous state and inherit eternal life.
IMO the salvation discussed by Jesus and true Pauline epistles deals with saving the Jews from oppression, not negative judgment.
Tentative Conclusion: Right behavior puts us in a state of righteousness and right before God. If we are in a state of righteousness at death or at the time of God's judgment, then we will inherit eternal life. If not, then personal destruction.
I don't see that believing in Jesus guarantees eternal life either. If you are in an unrighteous state at death or the time of judgment, I don't think you get the E ticket.
But right behavior does not guarantee God will deliver a person or nation from difficult circumstances. God does that as he chooses.
What do you think Legend, besides that it is long?
Please forgive the length.

Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission. -Eleanor Roosevelt-

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by Legend, posted 11-04-2005 6:04 PM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by Legend, posted 11-06-2005 4:33 PM purpledawn has replied
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 184 of 303 (257368)
11-06-2005 9:11 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by Legend
11-06-2005 4:33 PM


Re: Eternal Life and Salvation
quote:
So, right behaviour will gain you eternal life (Matt 25:31-46), but not necessarily a happy corporeal one. Am I following or have I lost you?
That seems to be the concensus from the scriptures. As you said, the genuinely righteous will inherit eternal life.
quote:
could you tell me what you base the 'personal destruction' alternative on?
On the day of judgment either one gets eternal life or permanent death. The wicked will be destroyed. I explain it better in the Hell thread.
quote:
do you think that eternal life = salvation?
That's what I'm investigating. Per the scriptures, on the day of judgment actions and sincerity are judged to determine whether we inherit eternal life or not.
I think people present it as being saved from eternal death and therefore salvation, but I don't see that the scriptures support this idea.
I feel that Jesus presented salvation as getting people to repent because the day of judgment was at hand. But they had to repent. I don't see that eternal life is granted in spite of ones actions.
Maybe Jesus and Paul aren't talking of the same type of salvation.
quote:
do you think that salvation in the synoptics applies specifically to saving the Jews from oppression, or does it apply to others under different circumstances?
Six of one and half a dozen of the other. That's where the NT gets murky.
Now the salvation that the Jews seemed to expect, per the OT, was a physical deliverance from oppression. God's kingdom on earth. Some NT verses reference this in Luke.
The healing of the sick etc. seems to be saving people from their circustances.
quote:
do you think the Samaritan would gain salvation / eternal life?
Eternal life if he was in a righteous state at the time of death.
quote:
Generally agree, though I think the 'unrighteous state' needs more definition.
I'll have to get into this one tomorrow, but I think is the area where we get into the "trying" scenerio.
Tomorrow Unrighteousness...

Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission. -Eleanor Roosevelt-

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by Legend, posted 11-06-2005 4:33 PM Legend has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 187 of 303 (257416)
11-07-2005 6:50 AM
Reply to: Message 183 by Legend
11-06-2005 4:33 PM


Out of Gas: A Modern Parable
A man was driving on a country road after dark and ran out of gas between two farm houses. He turned on his flashers and pulled a gas can out of his trunk and headed towards the closest farm house.
When he knocked on the door, the homeowner's 18 year old daughter answered the door. The man explained that he had run out of gas and needed a ride to the nearest gas station.
The daughter was home alone with no car, but her family did have a large gas tank used for the farm. The daughter told the man she was unable to drive him to town, but she could fill up the gas can.
The gas tank was secured with a combination lock. The daughter twisted the dial through the correct combinations, but the lock wouldn't open. She tried again, but the lock wouldn't open. She then told the man the combination and he tried, but the lock still wouldn't open.
The daughter apologized for not being able to open the lock, but the man to her neighbor across the road, who was an Elder in her church, would surely fill the gas can from his farm tank. The man thanked her for her efforts and walked across the road to the neighbors.
When the man knocked on the Elder's door he did not receive the help he expected. The Elder would not drive him to town and fearing that the man would come back later to steal gas, told him that his gas tank was empty even though it wasn't. He turned the man away.
The daughter felt bad that she couldn't help the man and told her father about the incident. Her father immediately replaced the combination lock with a key lock, so that it would no longer be a hinderance to helping others.
__________________________________________________________
This parable and others will come into play when I address righteousness and unrighteousness.

Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission. -Eleanor Roosevelt-

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