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Author Topic:   The Fires of Hell Have Gone Out: No Eternal Torment
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 1 of 300 (255606)
10-30-2005 9:32 AM


Actually the eternal fires of "Hell" do not exist anymore.
The NT word translated as hell is actually Gehenna which is Greek for the Valley of Hinnom.
The Valley of Hinnom had a very horrendous history in ancient times. It was used as a place where the pagan worshipers did all sorts of vile and wicked things - including burning children alive as sacrifices to the idols Moloch and Baal. One section of the valley was called Tophet, or the "fire-stove," where the children were slaughtered (2 Kings 23:10). It was a place of tremendous evil for many years.
After the Jews returned from the Babylonian exile, the valley became the city’s incinerator. Apparently they even added sulpur or brimstone to keep the fires burning continuously.
Gehenna became a vivid symbol of destruction and an abomination.
Therefore if your dead body was thrown into Gehenna, you were deemed a criminal. Your body was destroyed and you had no part in the world to come. This is the picture that the NT authors were presenting, not eternal torment.
Gehenna is no longer burning. Photos of Hell
Fortunately the scriptures do not support the teaching of eternal torment.
The only scripture that might support the teaching is:
Matt 25:46”"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
If one was to receive eternal torment as taught, then the person would still be "living".
IOW being tormented throughout his eternal life, but this verse states that only the righteous receive eternal life.
Therefore the punishment is death by destruction in the Lake of Fire, which is eternal in the sense that it is a permanent judgment. No resurrection for this person.
Eternal life is for the righteous and all others just cease to exist.
________
Bible Study Please

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by joshua221, posted 10-30-2005 5:58 PM purpledawn has replied
 Message 7 by Funkaloyd, posted 10-30-2005 10:06 PM purpledawn has not replied
 Message 9 by Hal Jordan, posted 10-31-2005 10:59 AM purpledawn has not replied
 Message 10 by Modulous, posted 10-31-2005 11:12 AM purpledawn has replied
 Message 67 by iano, posted 05-06-2006 5:55 PM purpledawn has not replied
 Message 111 by DorfMan, posted 05-07-2006 11:46 AM purpledawn has not replied
 Message 276 by Christian7, posted 05-18-2006 4:38 PM purpledawn has replied
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 Message 290 by jaywill, posted 05-24-2006 8:40 AM purpledawn has replied

AdminBrian
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 300 (255610)
10-30-2005 9:54 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 300 (255671)
10-30-2005 5:58 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by purpledawn
10-30-2005 9:32 AM


quote:
The NT word translated as hell is actually Gehenna which is Greek for the Valley of Hinnom.
Can you substantiate this claim, with evidence, and maybe scholarly analysis?
This is a common argument of the Jehovah Witness camp, but they have a (intentionally) mistyped Bible.
quote:
Therefore if your dead body was thrown into Gehenna, you were deemed a criminal. Your body was destroyed and you had no part in the world to come. This is the picture that the NT authors were presenting, not eternal torment.
Wrong, the NT writes were depicting Gehenna's torture, eternal.

The ocean breathes salty, won't you carry it in?
In your head, in your mouth, in your soul.
And maybe we'll get lucky and we'll both grow old.
Well I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I hope so.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by purpledawn, posted 10-30-2005 9:32 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by purpledawn, posted 10-30-2005 6:27 PM joshua221 has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 4 of 300 (255674)
10-30-2005 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by joshua221
10-30-2005 5:58 PM


Not Eternal Torture
quote:
The NT word translated as hell is actually Gehenna which is Greek for the Valley of Hinnom.
Can you substantiate this claim, with evidence, and maybe scholarly analysis?
Greek Lexicon
Strongs
quote:
Wrong, the NT writes were depicting Gehenna's torture, eternal.
Then you are saying that everyone gets eternal life.

Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission. -Eleanor Roosevelt-

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by joshua221, posted 10-30-2005 5:58 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by joshua221, posted 10-30-2005 6:37 PM purpledawn has replied
 Message 189 by Faith, posted 05-09-2006 10:44 AM purpledawn has not replied

joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 300 (255675)
10-30-2005 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by purpledawn
10-30-2005 6:27 PM


the good times are killing me
quote:
Hell is the place of the future punishment call "Gehenna" or "Gehenna of fire". This was originally the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned; a fit symbol of the wicked and their future destruction.
The writers used this place to describe the reality of what hell is.

The ocean breathes salty, won't you carry it in?
In your head, in your mouth, in your soul.
And maybe we'll get lucky and we'll both grow old.
Well I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I hope so.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by purpledawn, posted 10-30-2005 6:27 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by purpledawn, posted 10-30-2005 6:43 PM joshua221 has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 6 of 300 (255677)
10-30-2005 6:43 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by joshua221
10-30-2005 6:37 PM


Re: the good times are killing me
quote:
The writers used this place to describe the reality of what hell is.
A place where dead criminals were burned, destroyed. Not tormented.
So do you consider everyone to have eternal life?
ABE: The verses concerning hell are not comparing anything to Gehenna.
This message has been edited by purpledawn, 10-30-2005 08:29 PM

Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission. -Eleanor Roosevelt-

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by joshua221, posted 10-30-2005 6:37 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by joshua221, posted 10-31-2005 4:51 PM purpledawn has replied

Funkaloyd
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 300 (255710)
10-30-2005 10:06 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by purpledawn
10-30-2005 9:32 AM


It certainly fits with the oft-quoted Romans 6:23. Personally, I'd rather die, go "gently into that good night," than live forever.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by purpledawn, posted 10-30-2005 9:32 AM purpledawn has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Yaro, posted 10-30-2005 10:36 PM Funkaloyd has not replied

Yaro
Member (Idle past 6496 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 8 of 300 (255716)
10-30-2005 10:36 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Funkaloyd
10-30-2005 10:06 PM


I dunno... I wouldn't mind living forever if I was allowed to keep my youth and health

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Funkaloyd, posted 10-30-2005 10:06 PM Funkaloyd has not replied

Hal Jordan
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 300 (255785)
10-31-2005 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by purpledawn
10-30-2005 9:32 AM


PD - Good topic!
The concept of an eternal hell (an eternity of punishment for a mere 70-80 years of doing nothing more then not believing) seemed way too severe, even when I was a believer. The idea of hell in the bible is almost always thought of a literal idea, and never figurative, so the fear of hell could make many believe in the first place. Once the 'fies of eternal torment' have been extinguished, the person contemplating Christianity can do so without fear of choosing incorrectly.
Alas...the power that the unscrupulous wield over the fearful will dissipate...maybe that's why 'they' don't want the secret out.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by purpledawn, posted 10-30-2005 9:32 AM purpledawn has not replied

Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 10 of 300 (255788)
10-31-2005 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by purpledawn
10-30-2005 9:32 AM


Problem
Rev 20:14 writes:
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Hell here is 'Hades', the lake of fire isn't Gehenna. Hades is referenced several times in the Bible.
In Biblical Greek it is associated with Orcus, the infernal regions, a dark and dismal place in the very depths of the earth, the common receptacle of disembodied spirits. Usually Hades is just the abode of the wicked, Lu. 16:23, Rev. 20:13,14; a very uncomfortable place. TDNT.
Source

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by purpledawn, posted 10-30-2005 9:32 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by purpledawn, posted 10-31-2005 2:07 PM Modulous has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 11 of 300 (255811)
10-31-2005 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Modulous
10-31-2005 11:12 AM


Re: Problem
My Bible doesn't have Hades translated as hell, but I know it has been used that way. Originally the old English word hell meant "that which is covered (hidden or unseen)". When first used it would have been an adequate translation for Hades, but still not for Gehenna. Gehenna is a proper name for a real place.
Hell is not a Bible word. It is a word chosen by Bible Translators to translate four Bible words, sheol, hades, Gehenna, and Tartarus. Not one of the four has the meaning of Hell as it is used today. Not only is there no Hebrew or Greek word for Hell, but also at first even the English word Hell did not mean a place of torment after death as it does today. In Old English it was a covered place. A farmer would say "I helled my potatoes" meaning he put them in a hole and covered them to keep them from the cold. Helling a house meant to cover it with a roof. Helmet, a covering for the head is derived from the same word. Hell was never the best translations of hades, but formerly it would have been acceptable in Old English. It is not an acceptable translation of hades in modern English and has been abandoned by all newer translations.
quote:
Hell here is 'Hades', the lake of fire isn't Gehenna.
No the lake of fire here isn't Gehenna, but then The Book of Revelations is a symbolic writing and since Hades/Hell is being thrown into the "lake of fire". The lake of fire does not represent Hades/Hell either.
In working through the symbolism in Revelations I don't see that eternal torment is presented in this passage.

Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission. -Eleanor Roosevelt-

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Modulous, posted 10-31-2005 11:12 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Modulous, posted 10-31-2005 2:25 PM purpledawn has replied

Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 12 of 300 (255813)
10-31-2005 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by purpledawn
10-31-2005 2:07 PM


What about Luke?
Luke 16:23-28 writes:
And in hell (Hades) he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence.
Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Here we see Hades being a place of torment and flames.
This message has been edited by Modulous, Mon, 31-October-2005 07:26 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by purpledawn, posted 10-31-2005 2:07 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by purpledawn, posted 10-31-2005 3:30 PM Modulous has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 13 of 300 (255823)
10-31-2005 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Modulous
10-31-2005 2:25 PM


Re: What about Luke?
quote:
Here we see Hades being a place of torment and flames.
That is a parable being told by Jesus. The parable is crafted to emphasize the point, not present facts.
The point of the parable is the last line:
Luke 16:31
"But he said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.' "
The story is aimed at the selfishness of the Jewish leaders and wealthy people.
Don't miss the point for the props.

Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission. -Eleanor Roosevelt-

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Modulous, posted 10-31-2005 2:25 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by truthlover, posted 10-31-2005 3:58 PM purpledawn has replied
 Message 33 by Modulous, posted 11-01-2005 2:19 AM purpledawn has replied

truthlover
Member (Idle past 4059 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 14 of 300 (255825)
10-31-2005 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by purpledawn
10-31-2005 3:30 PM


Re: What about Luke?
That is a parable being told by Jesus. The parable is crafted to emphasize the point, not present facts.
Possibly, but one shouldn't ignore the fact that Y'shua is referencing a description of Hades from 1 Enoch, a book also quoted by Jude as a prophecy and referenced relatively frequently by the early church. It seems likely that at least some of Y'shua's listeners would have been familiar with the book, or at least its description of the after life, and would have seen it as not being purely allegorical.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by purpledawn, posted 10-31-2005 3:30 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by joshua221, posted 10-31-2005 4:47 PM truthlover has not replied
 Message 18 by purpledawn, posted 10-31-2005 4:57 PM truthlover has not replied

joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 300 (255833)
10-31-2005 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by truthlover
10-31-2005 3:58 PM


nicely put
Your community is wierd lol. Reminds me like a cult or Jonestown. Not that it's bad, it's just wierd I guess.
to Purple dawn.
It's hard for me to picture God sending people to eternal suffering. I don't get it. But the Ghehenna argument is just a skewed interpretation, it was used to strengthen how horrible Hell would be. I disagree with what you think of the words of Jesus, and your interpretations of the bible.

The ocean breathes salty, won't you carry it in?
In your head, in your mouth, in your soul.
And maybe we'll get lucky and we'll both grow old.
Well I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I hope so.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by truthlover, posted 10-31-2005 3:58 PM truthlover has not replied

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