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Author Topic:   Behold the Homind
Yaro
Member (Idle past 4883 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 61 of 73 (250170)
10-08-2005 9:28 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Nighttrain
10-08-2005 9:20 PM


Re: Bacteria
Margulies makes it eerely seem as if bacteria have evolved us as a sort of bio suit :)

A little portable eco system that supplies food for a teaming mass of microbs. She has a chapter devoted to it. It's pretty great stuff.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Nighttrain, posted 10-08-2005 9:20 PM Nighttrain has responded

Replies to this message:
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Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 2380 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 62 of 73 (250205)
10-09-2005 1:30 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by Yaro
10-08-2005 9:28 PM


Re: Bacteria
Ta, Yaro, I`ll order a copy.

This message is a reply to:
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ausar_maat
Member (Idle past 3886 days)
Posts: 136
From: Toronto
Joined: 10-04-2005


Message 63 of 73 (250264)
10-09-2005 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by Nighttrain
10-09-2005 1:30 AM


Re: Bacteria
I will too, sounds like a great reading

This message is a reply to:
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Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 2380 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 64 of 73 (255683)
10-30-2005 7:09 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Yaro
10-08-2005 9:28 PM


Re: Bacteria
Hi, Yaro, got my book and it`s a great read. Wonder if some of the conclusions are dated as it was printed in 1986?

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Yaro
Member (Idle past 4883 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 65 of 73 (255691)
10-30-2005 8:16 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Nighttrain
10-30-2005 7:09 PM


Re: Bacteria
ya. I read an updated review commenting on some things. I belive the first printing was in '86, but it was updated in '97. My version says '97.

ABE: I belive alot of what lynn margulis put's forward in this book has become mainstream theory. I'll let ya know.

ABE2: The wiki had a good little blurb on her:

Lynn Margulis (born 1938) is a biologist and a professor at the University of Massachusetts Amherst. In 1967 she proposed a contentious new hypothesis which became her most important scientific contribution as the endosymbiotic theory of the origin of mitochondria as separate organisms that long ago entered a symbiotic relationship with eukaryotic cells through endosymbiosis.

"She is best known for her theory of symbiogenesis, which challenges a central tenet of neodarwinism. She argues that inherited variation, significant in evolution, does not come mainly from random mutations. Rather new tissues, organs, and even new species evolve primarily through the long-lasting intimacy of strangers. The fusion of genomes in symbioses followed by natural selection, she suggests, leads to increasingly complex levels of individuality." [1]

"After the proposal of the endosymbiotic theory, Margulis predicted that if organelles were prokaryotic symbionts, then the organelles will have their own DNA that would be different from the DNA of the cell. This prediction was actually proven in the 1980's in mitochondria, centrioles, and chloroplasts." [2]

She was criticized as a radical and her scientific work was rejected by mainstream biology for many years. Her work has more recently received widespread support and acclaim. Prominent evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins recently said that her theory that the eukaryotic cell is a symbiotic union of primitive prokaryotic cells "is one of the great achievements of twentieth-century evolutionary biology, and I greatly admire her for it."

Margulis was inducted into the World Academy of Art and Science, the Russian Academy of Natural Sciences, and the American Academy of Arts and Sciences between 1995 and 1998.

She is also a proponent and co-developer of the modern version of Gaia theory, based on an idea developed by the English atmospheric scientist James Lovelock.

She was the first wife of astronomer Carl Sagan and is the mother of Dorion Sagan, popular science writer and co-author, Jeremy Sagan, software developer and founder of Sagan Technology, Zachary Margulis, lawyer and Jennifer Margulis, teacher and author.

This message has been edited by Yaro, 10-30-2005 08:25 PM


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Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 2380 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 66 of 73 (255744)
10-31-2005 1:49 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by Yaro
10-30-2005 8:16 PM


Re: Bacteria
I`ve got the Gaia series and Dorion Sagan`s'Biospheres'. Didn`t realise he is the son Of Lynn.

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Adminnemooseus
Director
Posts: 3912
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 67 of 73 (255779)
10-31-2005 10:41 AM


Topic drift alert! - I think a new topic is needed
Message 60 seemed to be marginly on topic, but it has triggered a series of messages that are not on topic.

The mutant theme seems worthy of a new topic of its own.

Adminnemooseus


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Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3811
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 68 of 73 (255810)
10-31-2005 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by nwr
10-07-2005 7:48 PM


Circular?
nwr writes:

My point is that intelligence is mainly a social adaptation. We use our intelligence most importantly for social interactions. That our intelligence is greater than that of other social species, is related to the complexity of our social interactions being greater than with other social species.

Sure, we also use intelligence to explore space, design aircraft, etc. But our ability to use intelligence in that way is mainly a side effect of a social adaptation.

Hi, nwr. The above analysis seems circular: aren't our social interactions more complex in large part because of our intelligence?

Our social adaptations and intelligence are surely intimately linked, but are you suggesting that social adaptation alone drove the evolution of our intelligence?

Please note the question marks--they are genuine.


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nwr
Member
Posts: 5590
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 69 of 73 (255855)
10-31-2005 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Omnivorous
10-31-2005 2:05 PM


Re: Circular?
The above analysis seems circular: aren't our social interactions more complex in large part because of our intelligence?

I don't think there is a circularity problem. You can sometimes describe the same events in different ways, as in the chicken-egg riddle.

Our social adaptations and intelligence are surely intimately linked, but are you suggesting that social adaptation alone drove the evolution of our intelligence?

Yes, that is precisely what I am suggesting.

It's opinion, of course. The last time I checked, fossils didn't come with IQ reports.

I can readily see how there could be selection for social cohesion. I find it hard to come up with a scenario where there could be selection for intelligence. It is often remarked that the most intelligent produce less children than average. I cannot prove that this was always so, but I do suspect that. The most intelligent are often social misfits.


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RAZD
Member
Posts: 20484
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 70 of 73 (255913)
10-31-2005 9:14 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by nwr
10-31-2005 6:07 PM


Creative forces.
I find it hard to come up with a scenario where there could be selection for intelligence.

Try selection for creativity. Specifically creativity displayed as part of mating behavior. Song, Dance, Art.

Why are rock and movie stars perceived as desirable mates? Why was an old fat bald Picasso considered sexy?

Creativity then drives {intelligence} as a cofactor to being more creative, but there is no direct link between IQ and creativity.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand

RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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nwr
Member
Posts: 5590
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 71 of 73 (255916)
10-31-2005 9:20 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by RAZD
10-31-2005 9:14 PM


Re: Creative forces.
Try selection for creativity.

I pretty much agree with that. It's one of the things I would expect to contribute to social cohesion.

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Clive
Inactive Member


Message 72 of 73 (306332)
04-24-2006 7:19 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by ausar_maat
10-05-2005 2:23 PM


No, Trotman emphatically does not believe in alien visitors, and "The Feathered Onion" dismisses them.

I should know!


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AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 73 of 73 (306333)
04-24-2006 7:28 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Clive
04-24-2006 7:19 PM


Welcome to EvC.
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