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Author Topic:   Judges 19 - Sickest story in the bible
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 91 of 120 (253546)
10-20-2005 9:15 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by Funkaloyd
10-20-2005 8:16 PM


Re: the issue is what the bible says
Where does the "full biblical meaning" come from; is death used metaphorically elsewhere (I really wouldn't know)?
Here are some of the next instances:
"And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died." - Gen 5:5
"And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die." - Genesis 6:17
it's really silly to think god meant anything else, just because it didn't come true. especially when the case is that god took extra care to spelly out that he really means death and not something else.
god said it, it didn't happen, therefor we misunderstood god.
the ironic part is that we're dealing with exactly the same situation as christ here. god is supposed to punish this sin with death, but he lets his creations live. it's not a LIE it's forgiveness, or maybe a commuted sentance.
but god certainly meant death.
This message has been edited by arachnophilia, 10-20-2005 09:19 PM

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Funkaloyd, posted 10-20-2005 8:16 PM Funkaloyd has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 92 of 120 (255594)
10-30-2005 7:29 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Yaro
09-08-2005 4:30 PM


What God gave us
I guess what God should have really gave us when Moses went to the mountain was some plans for local hotels, some cell phones, and a police station. This way things like this would never happen. There would be no need for hospitality, woman would never get raped, the guilty would never get away with things, and wars would never happen.
I just love it when people compare things that happened thousands of years ago, by todays standards. Then you realize, things haven't changed one bit.
Just what was it like to live back then, and why did they have the rules they had, is what you should ask yourself.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Yaro, posted 09-08-2005 4:30 PM Yaro has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Yaro, posted 10-30-2005 10:59 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6495 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 93 of 120 (255627)
10-30-2005 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by riVeRraT
10-30-2005 7:29 AM


Re: What God gave us
I guess what God should have really gave us when Moses went to the mountain was some plans for local hotels, some cell phones, and a police station. This way things like this would never happen.
Ya know, this ain't as crazy as you think. I'm surprised god didn't bless his people with a modern system of justice. That sure would have given the people a happier life filled with less bloodshed.
There would be no need for hospitality, woman would never get raped, the guilty would never get away with things, and wars would never happen.
Well, I wouldn't expect utopia, but the OT revels in this sort of primitive violence. I mean, what kind of a punishment is stoning someone to death? Or slavery? Or any of the other atrocities the OT claims is just.
I just love it when people compare things that happened thousands of years ago, by todays standards. Then you realize, things haven't changed one bit.
I don't know what your talking about. While we may not be perfect, the modern world is much MUCH better off than the primitives described in the bible. We have real systems of justice, that at least attempt to have punishments that fit the crimes. That at least give a nod to fairness, due process, rehabilitation. You can find nothing of the sort in the bible.
Just what was it like to live back then, and why did they have the rules they had, is what you should ask yourself.
Ah. So much for objective morality then eh? So there was a point in time when it was ok to send your concubine (not to mention the very concept of a concubine) to a mob, in order that she be raped to death.
Please tell me your joking.
Stories like Judges 19, among others, are an indictment about the primitive mentality of people at the time. It is further proof of the incongruity of the OT to modern life. Why should we honer a book that proscribes rape, infantaside, stoning, as just punishments?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by riVeRraT, posted 10-30-2005 7:29 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by riVeRraT, posted 10-30-2005 4:53 PM Yaro has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 94 of 120 (255665)
10-30-2005 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Yaro
10-30-2005 10:59 AM


Re: What God gave us
I guess what God should have really gave us when Moses went to the mountain was some plans for local hotels, some cell phones, and a police station. This way things like this would never happen.
Ya know, this ain't as crazy as you think. I'm surprised god didn't bless his people with a modern system of justice. That sure would have given the people a happier life filled with less bloodshed.
That’s exactly what he did when he delivered his people from Egypt. Only thing is you or I have a hard time relating to it, because we really just don't fully comprehend what it was like to be alive in those times. We only have drips and drabs of what went on.
Well, I wouldn't expect utopia, but the OT revels in this sort of primitive violence. I mean, what kind of a punishment is stoning someone to death? Or slavery? Or any of the other atrocities the OT claims is just.
The world has not changed one bit since those times.
People are still put to death, slavery still exists in its rawest form, and in a way that we don't yet fathom, and flying planes into the Twin Towers, or the Oklahoma City bombing is not an atrocity? The pollution we have done to this planet, the disease we have created, and pumped our bodies and streams full of chemicals till offspring with 3 eyes start appearing?
Yea, the world is a much better place, really it is, keep telling yourself that.
We have real systems of justice, that at least attempt to have punishments that fit the crimes. That at least give a nod to fairness, due process, rehabilitation.
It's all relative. The punishments for the crimes back then, were relatively correct. Society was scarce, and maybe things like policemen patrolling the streets, and prisons were few and far between, so a law of the land had to be laid down.
Would you rape someone if you knew that when you get caught, that you would be stoned to death? There wasn't much of a justice system, or a decent way to enforce it, so the punishments were more severe.
Take a look at the way some of these third world countries live. Places that are void of enforcement, and you'll start to get a better picture. It's probably the reason they still believe in eye for an eye.
The world doesn't need to be filled with second chances, it needs to be righteous, so that God may enter into our lives, and we can be one with God.. But God knew this wasn't possible, so he gave us his Son.
So there was a point in time when it was ok to send your concubine (not to mention the very concept of a concubine) to a mob, in order that she be raped to death.
The way I see it, is that he had no choice in the matter. He did because he had no coice. It wasn't the husbands fault. You know this by his reaction afterwards.
Stories like Judges 19, among others, are an indictment about the primitive mentality of people at the time.
Yes and no Yaro. If the earth entered into a 3rd world war, and had a nuke fest, and most of the population was wiped out, there would be no doubt in my mind that the current way of society as we know would just be thrown out the window, and we would have to start all over again, having learned absolutely nothing from the ways of our past. I bet you would even have to discover the hard way that living like that was a "necessary evil" (we only perceive it as evil now) and you would be forced into living like that, if you were dropped into those conditions. In order to survive, and in order to bring your righteous way of thinking into the future. And I do think that you are a righteous thinker.
Why should we honer a book that proscribes rape, infantaside, stoning, as just punishments?
Because it is truth, and it happened. Don't be angry at an account of what happened, but try to understand why things were the way they are. If God is all loving, then you have to read that book from that point of view. You are reading the book with the preconceived notion that God does not exist, and it was all just a big joke. Pray to God to give you the understanding, he will give you what you ask. Stop listening to man, and start listening to your spirit. Forget about what the world has taught you, open your mind, and think out of the box the sum of your experiences and teachings has put you in.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Yaro, posted 10-30-2005 10:59 AM Yaro has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Nighttrain, posted 10-30-2005 6:42 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 97 by Yaro, posted 10-30-2005 11:08 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3993 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 95 of 120 (255676)
10-30-2005 6:42 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by riVeRraT
10-30-2005 4:53 PM


Re: What God gave us
The pollution we have done to this planet, the disease we have created, and pumped our bodies and streams full of chemicals till offspring with 3 eyes start appearing?
What disease we have created?
Col 1:16--All things were created by him
Rev 4:11--for thou has created all things
Rev 10:6--who created earth and all the things that therein are
Disease is a prerogative of God and He has been mighty successful at it, let me tell ya. 150 million here, 150 million there, sundry millions all over the place. I especially like that Necrosing Fasciitis (flesh eater). And leprosy used to be a goodie till mankind started fooling around with drugs to block His will.Still, malaria keeps God content with 15,000,000 kiddies knocked off each year.
Edited to add a zero
This message has been edited by Nighttrain, 10-30-2005 06:43 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by riVeRraT, posted 10-30-2005 4:53 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by riVeRraT, posted 10-30-2005 9:01 PM Nighttrain has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 96 of 120 (255698)
10-30-2005 9:01 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Nighttrain
10-30-2005 6:42 PM


Re: What God gave us
We create, God creates. The difference being that only God can create something from nothing, we create from what God has so graciously given us to be responsible for.
Yes God sent disease down to the unrighteous, and justly so, for he is the only one that can judge.
However when man pollutes the earth, and we get sick from it, it falls under suffering the sins of others. We are a unified human race, regardless of what anyone thinks we are.
Tell me the military has never created a disease?
Tell me Asbestos was a good idea, and it never got anyone sick.
Think of all the medicine gone bad.
Think of chemicals pouring into our watershed areas.
Think of Chernobyl.
Agent orange
Lead poisoning
We burn enough oil to fill a football field 2500ft high everyday, the byproduct we breath, which leads to disease.
The list goes on and on.
Behind everyone of these things is,, you guessed it....science. But never fear, because science will save the day, and cure all those diseases, hurray!!! we are saved!!!
So the question remains, has science done more harm than good?
When God destroys a race with disease, or sends a sickness or golden hemorrhoid, it is for a good purpose, to the unjust. We just kill ourselves for money. Which one will you worship tonight? Which one will get you into heaven?
Rockefeller was the richest man in the world, relatively speaking. You know how much he left behind when he died?
All of it.
Yes nothing happens but by the will of the Father. But the Fathers will is to leave it up to us.
If he didn't give us the bad with the good, it would be like giving us a boomerang and no arms to throw it. I am getting kind of tired of people blaming God for all the bad in the world, and not taking responsibility for it, or taking responsibility to stop it. But I understand that point of view, for it was my own for so many years.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Nighttrain, posted 10-30-2005 6:42 PM Nighttrain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Nighttrain, posted 10-31-2005 1:32 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6495 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 97 of 120 (255724)
10-30-2005 11:08 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by riVeRraT
10-30-2005 4:53 PM


Re: What God gave us
That’s exactly what he did when he delivered his people from Egypt. Only thing is you or I have a hard time relating to it, because we really just don't fully comprehend what it was like to be alive in those times. We only have drips and drabs of what went on.
I don't buy that. I think we have a very good idea what it was like. We can observe current primative cultures and societies that were similar to those back in the days of the OT. Heck, look at the taliban or Saudi Arabia. Theocracy rarely produces humanitarian gvt.
In any case, I don't see how the times have anything to do with it. Harsh conditions doesn't make rape or stoning right. That's why we prosecute people for war crimes. There are some acts which are simply inexcusable and unjust despite the conditions.
The world has not changed one bit since those times.
... Hmmm... didn't you just sugest that we couldn't possibly know what it was like back then? I think your contradictiong yourself.
Either the world is very different today, or it isn't make up your mind. Any way you cut it, the ancient hebrew laws are dumb, outadetd, and primative.
People are still put to death, slavery still exists in its rawest form, and in a way that we don't yet fathom, and flying planes into the Twin Towers, or the Oklahoma City bombing is not an atrocity?
All these things are true. I don't claim that we live in a utopia today. But when you look at the numbers there is truely a greater number of people living better today than there ever were in days long past.
Remember, it was just in the 1900's the average life expectancy for an adult was around 45-50 years old. In the middle ages it was about 35-40. In the days of the caveman we were lucky to get to 20 with all our teeth.
We are better off today, even if things aren't perfect. I think alot of that can easily be atributed to greater advancements in thought.
The pollution we have done to this planet, the disease we have created, and pumped our bodies and streams full of chemicals till offspring with 3 eyes start appearing?
Yes, bad stuff, but the same technology that polutes allows us to create technology that doesn't. Look at the nuclear bomb, horrible destructive force. Yet without it we would not have many of the lifesaving medical treatments for cancer and other illnesses we have today.
It's a give and take. And while I agree that we have not done great things to the environment, we will remedy it as time goes by. (at least I hope so!).
Yea, the world is a much better place, really it is, keep telling yourself that.
Well, I'm sorry you hate it so much. I'm just glad I wasn't born in the middle ages where I could have died of dissentery at the age of 15 after being married off to someone years my senior with bad teeth and too much hair
It's all relative. The punishments for the crimes back then, were relatively correct. Society was scarce, and maybe things like policemen patrolling the streets, and prisons were few and far between, so a law of the land had to be laid down.
Would you rape someone if you knew that when you get caught, that you would be stoned to death? There wasn't much of a justice system, or a decent way to enforce it, so the punishments were more severe.
I both agree and dissagree. I agree with the idea that harsh conditions will breed harshe societies. However, just because conditions were harsh, does not make stoning someone to death a humane punishment.
It's still practiced today in some countries despite modern conveniences. Look at Iran. Modern country, primative, backward laws.
There is never a case where stoning someone is a just punishment for a crime.
Take a look at the way some of these third world countries live.
I grew up in a third world country. Poor people, govt. coruption, bad traffic. We still didn't stone people in the streets for crimes. We still had the rule of law, due process, etc.
Places that are void of enforcement, and you'll start to get a better picture. It's probably the reason they still believe in eye for an eye.p.
Now... a place like Ruanda, Haiti, etc. I see where you are getting at. These places are more like 4th world IMHO IMHO Americans tend to think of the 3rd world as this crazy post-apocalyptic wasteland full of free ranging chickens and warlords.
They are countries, just like any other. They just happen to be poorer and more agrarian at times. But just because they are poor does not make them lawless trashdumps. I lived in both Costa Rica and the Dominican Republic for a good part of my life and they are nothing like the "bannana republics" depicted in the Ameican psyche.
In any case, back to your assertion that a 3rd world country would have more "eye for eye" mentalities due to environmental pressure. My point is so what?
Just cuz your starving does not make it ok to start eating the babys of the neighboring tribe.
The world doesn't need to be filled with second chances, it needs to be righteous, so that God may enter into our lives, and we can be one with God.. But God knew this wasn't possible, so he gave us his Son.
Sigh... he's god. How can anything be impossible for him?
The way I see it, is that he had no choice in the matter. He did because he had no coice. It wasn't the husbands fault. You know this by his reaction afterwards.
Hmmmmm.... nope. I don't buy it. He was a little sniveling wimpy ass coward and he himself should have been executed for his crime.
What kind of man is that? "Don't kill me, here take her. Rape the shit outta her. Just don't hurt me."
Fuck that! I'd die first!
Shit... no choice in the matter... He basicaly proved himself a spineless scumbag. But the bible doesn't paint him as such... go figure...
Yes and no Yaro. If the earth entered into a 3rd world war, and had a nuke fest, and most of the population was wiped out, there would be no doubt in my mind that the current way of society as we know would just be thrown out the window, and we would have to start all over again, having learned absolutely nothing from the ways of our past.
Maybe. It doesn't make it right. And as they progress back to our level of society they will undoubtedly "rediscover" the ways that were lost.
I bet you would even have to discover the hard way that living like that was a "necessary evil" (we only perceive it as evil now) and you would be forced into living like that, if you were dropped into those conditions. In order to survive, and in order to bring your righteous way of thinking into the future. And I do think that you are a righteous thinker.
Ya, I agree. A harsh environment/harsh society can breed all sorts of... harshness ... it still doesn't make it right! That's my point. God could have established the isrealites with a true civil govt. I mean, it's god! he could have made sure it worked out...
meh... you know what I mean.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by riVeRraT, posted 10-30-2005 4:53 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by riVeRraT, posted 10-31-2005 8:37 AM Yaro has not replied

  
Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3993 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 98 of 120 (255743)
10-31-2005 1:32 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by riVeRraT
10-30-2005 9:01 PM


Re: What God gave us
Behind everyone of these things is,, you guessed it....science. But never fear, because science will save the day, and cure all those diseases, hurray!!! we are saved!!!
When you go to the doctors, or pharmacist, or are on the operating table, do you ask for a scientific cure, or to have the demons driven out of you? Disease has been with us from the start--Creation or abiogenesis, and till we started to work out our own cures, millions died.And keep dying. Man offers the only way to conquer the barbarity of disease.
I am getting kind of tired of people blaming God for all the bad in the world, and not taking responsibility for it, or taking responsibility to stop it.
You can`t have it both ways. Either God created all, knowing the side effects, or He didn`t have a clue what He was doing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by riVeRraT, posted 10-30-2005 9:01 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by riVeRraT, posted 10-31-2005 8:41 AM Nighttrain has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 99 of 120 (255771)
10-31-2005 8:37 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by Yaro
10-30-2005 11:08 PM


Re: What God gave us
Theocracy rarely produces humanitarian gvt.
Precisely the point why God had to come and give some kind of justice structure to the current society.
I do not find stoning someone to death for rape a bad idea at all. Call me sick. But when a person gets raped, they are ruined for life. The punishment fits the crime.
The moral of the punishment is....DON'T DO IT!!
What's so bad about that, unless you think rape is ok.
In any case, I don't see how the times have anything to do with it.
Yes, I can see that, I've been trying to point it out to you as well.
Harsh conditions doesn't make rape or stoning right
Harsh conditions only has a part to do with it. If think it was only harsh conditions, then you are not allowing a reasonable explanation for the rules, ignorance of the times at work.
That's why we prosecute people for war crimes. There are some acts which are simply inexcusable and unjust despite the conditions.
Exactly the same reason why the punishments were what they were.
The world has not changed one bit since those times.
... Hmmm... didn't you just sugest that we couldn't possibly know what it was like back then? I think your contradictiong yourself.
Only if you mis-understand me. The morals haven't changed, I believe I expressed that. Our physical surroundings have, and our ability to police ourselves has, but not in every country.
I should start a thread, defining morals.
Either the world is very different today, or it isn't make up your mind. Any way you cut it, the ancient hebrew laws are dumb, outadetd, and primative.
Thanks be to Christ our Lord, Amen.
If it wasn't for him, we might still be living under those laws. Parts of the world still do. You owe your current way of thinking to the Lord Christ.
All these things are true. I don't claim that we live in a utopia today. But when you look at the numbers there is truely a greater number of people living better today than there ever were in days long past.
I don't know, or pretend to know. Let's go pull up the census report from 3000BC
Remember, it was just in the 1900's the average life expectancy for an adult was around 45-50 years old. In the middle ages it was about 35-40. In the days of the caveman we were lucky to get to 20 with all our teeth.
If being alive longer is the only qualification to describe a better life, then I disagree. My Grandmother is 88, and is on several medications, suffers from Alzheimer’s, and hardly remembers one day from the next. She gets dizzy spells, and falls down, is constantly going to the doctor, and has to watch everything she does. MY motherin-law, my father in-law, my Aunts, my Uncles, my step mom, my dad, are experiencing similar things. But hey, its great to be alive!!! I can watch the rest of the world have fun, while I take 7 pills a day, and count my steps to make sure I don't fall. I can also watch the inheritance I built up for my children be pissed away on medication, so much to the point that I can't even afford a steak dinner anymore. Crap, I can't even eat steak anymore, because my teeth would fall out, and my intestines will jam up so hard, that I would have to call roto-router to free up my ass. But hey its great to be alive!!!!
I am only showing one side of it. Of course there is a good side to all of that, but I need to show you just how great things are really.
The bible says we can be healed. I wish we were faithful enough to actually see those healings take place every time we need them. I have seen healings, but there is no science in explaining them. I have myself been healed of minor physical ailments, and mental ones too. But its all subjective, from a scientific method point of view.
We are better off today, even if things aren't perfect. I think a lot of that can easily be atributed to greater advancements in thought.
I am not sure. Have you ever felt that you were born in the wrong era? Many people do, and wish they were alive many years ago. I sometimes wish that, but I like living today, and even sometimes wish I could live in the future.
If everything is from God, then the good is too, and I choose to thank God for being able to be alive in this day and age. But ff 1000 years from now, and people might look back at these times, and say, boy I am sure glad we didn't live back then.
But please explain this advancement in thought you speak of.
I only see advancement in science, which requires thought, but that has little to do with morals, or love.
Yes, bad stuff, but the same technology that polutes allows us to create technology that doesn't. Look at the nuclear bomb, horrible destructive force. Yet without it we would not have many of the lifesaving medical treatments for cancer and other illnesses we have today.
Was there cancer 5000 years ago?
It's a give and take. And while I agree that we have not done great things to the environment, we will remedy it as time goes by. (at least I hope so!).
Me too brother! But I currently live in a society that forces me to pollute, in order to survive. I destroy to live.
Well, I'm sorry you hate it so much. I'm just glad I wasn't born in the middle ages where I could have died of dissentery at the age of 15 after being married off to someone years my senior with bad teeth and too much hair
Yes, I agree, but that is not the rule. People lived long lives back then as well. I think the bible promises 70 years to a righteous man.
I grew up in a third world country. Poor people, govt. coruption, bad traffic. We still didn't stone people in the streets for crimes. We still had the rule of law, due process, etc.
If you caught someone in the act of raping your daughter, what would you do to that person? (God forbid!!)
In any case, back to your assertion that a 3rd world country would have more "eye for eye" mentalities due to environmental pressure. My point is so what?
Just cuz your starving does not make it ok to start eating the babys of the neighboring tribe.
So in a sense you agree that mentality exists then?
Eating babies? Yuck!
I think the OT teaches people to take care of the neighbors, it was law. There should be no starving around you.
The world doesn't need to be filled with second chances, it needs to be righteous, so that God may enter into our lives, and we can be one with God.. But God knew this wasn't possible, so he gave us his Son.
Sigh... he's god. How can anything be impossible for him?
Not impossible for him, impossible for us. Missed point.
Blame God if you want to, I did for a long time. Seek him to find out the answers. When and if you experience God, if you haven't already, you might come to a better understanding. The truth is hidden from you.
Hmmmmm.... nope. I don't buy it. He was a little sniveling wimpy ass coward and he himself should have been executed for his crime.
Your picture of the scene, and the one I have are very different.
I think if he would have stood in the path between his wife and them, he would have died, and the wife would have been raped anyway.
Yes and no Yaro. If the earth entered into a 3rd world war, and had a nuke fest, and most of the population was wiped out, there would be no doubt in my mind that the current way of society as we know would just be thrown out the window, and we would have to start all over again, having learned absolutely nothing from the ways of our past.
Maybe. It doesn't make it right. And as they progress back to our level of society they will undoubtedly "rediscover" the ways that were lost.
Only on a need be basis. That is why we are were we are today, and they were where they were then. That’s my point, and you just expressed that you agree with it.
Ya, I agree. A harsh environment/harsh society can breed all sorts of... harshness ... it still doesn't make it right! That's my point. God could have established the isrealites with a true civil govt. I mean, it's god! he could have made sure it worked out...
meh... you know what I mean.
Yes, that's exactly what God is doing. I believe if he would have advanced us to far to quickly, we would have never got it. We still don't get it. I have a 80% rule in life. 80% of the people who do what they do, either suck at it, or do it for the wrong purpose. This includes religion, doctors, car mechanics, plumbers, etc.
If only 20% of the people on earth (probably less than that) actually get what God is trying to teach us, and follow it. Then how could he come down and change things so rapidly?
You can see this in our human nature in the stories of the bible. 40 years in a desert with a pillar of fire by night, etc. They kept abandoning God at every tough turn in their lives.
Even the disciples, every corner they turned with Jesus, he had to reteach them and show them faith.
We are a species that seems to do best by learning from our mistakes, and our trials and tribulations. How can we know the light, unless we experience the dark? But when the light comes into your life, the dark has no choice but to run and hide.
Yes God came down several times, and then sent his Son for us, but you still sit here and complain that he should come down and change things for us, and show us a better way.
Tell me one thing that Jesus said that you disagree with.
Jesus was the next logical step in our walk with God as a human race, and this will all lead to the end. (whenever that happens).
When we develop stuff, its a step by step process, that takes years on end, and sometimes never comes to completion. This is the way of life. This is a law from God. You can't put a formula 1 engine in a model T and expect it to stay together when you step on the gas.
BTW, its ok to wish things were different. I do too. I think its God's nature in us. The bible does say that he wrote his laws on the minds and hearts of everyone, after Jesus. I think its those laws that you are trying to get in touch with. I hope this makes sense to you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Yaro, posted 10-30-2005 11:08 PM Yaro has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by LinearAq, posted 10-31-2005 1:41 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 105 by Funkaloyd, posted 10-31-2005 9:03 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 100 of 120 (255772)
10-31-2005 8:41 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by Nighttrain
10-31-2005 1:32 AM


Re: What God gave us
You can`t have it both ways. Either God created all, knowing the side effects, or He didn`t have a clue what He was doing.
Maybe we are the ones who don't have a clue. I share in your fustration.
How could you expect to understand the One who just breathed the universe into existance?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Nighttrain, posted 10-31-2005 1:32 AM Nighttrain has not replied

  
LinearAq
Member (Idle past 4675 days)
Posts: 598
From: Pocomoke City, MD
Joined: 11-03-2004


Message 101 of 120 (255809)
10-31-2005 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by riVeRraT
10-31-2005 8:37 AM


Re: What God gave us
riVeRraT writes:
Precisely the point why God had to come and give some kind of justice structure to the current society.
I do not find stoning someone to death for rape a bad idea at all. Call me sick. But when a person gets raped, they are ruined for life. The punishment fits the crime.
The moral of the punishment is....DON'T DO IT!!
What's so bad about that, unless you think rape is ok.
First, in what way is a person who is raped "ruined for life". I am not condoning rape but you indicate that the person who was raped is held accountable for that rape. How is she ruined any more than if she were beaten up?
Second, I think Yaro's point is not that these things are right or wrong according to the times but that the Bible, and God by default, condones those things.
God says it's right for a child of an unwed mother to be kept out of the congregation.
God says it's right for a man who had his genitals damaged to be kept out of the congregation of the Lord. (I wonder who checked for that?)
God condones slavery.
God condones the harsh punishments that are called for in the law.
The God that never changes must surely require us to follow those same requirements now. If He condones and even commands particular behaviors then but considers those behaviors wrong now, then what does that say about objective morals. You argue that morals should be changed based on subjective criteria. Some things are right in a primitive society but no longer are? How relativistic can you get?
I should start a thread, defining morals.
please do.
Was there cancer 5000 years ago?
Judging by the many and varied things that can cause cancer, I would say, yes. If you have some evidence that it did not exist then, I wouldn't mind seeing it...another thread probably.
riVeRraT writes:
Your picture of the scene, and the one I have are very different.
I think if he would have stood in the path between his wife and them, he would have died, and the wife would have been raped anyway.
WOW! If you are married, then you should tell your wife that this is how you will act if similarly threatened. Obviously, you should act in this manner if it is right according to the Bible. The moral: Save yourself at the expense of another so you can have revenge against both the guilty and innocent in the family of those who committed the crime!
You do know the rest of the story...right?
When we develop stuff, its a step by step process, that takes years on end, and sometimes never comes to completion. This is the way of life. This is a law from God. You can't put a formula 1 engine in a model T and expect it to stay together when you step on the gas.
Then right and wrong are actually relative to the situation and the society?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by riVeRraT, posted 10-31-2005 8:37 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by macaroniandcheese, posted 10-31-2005 2:37 PM LinearAq has not replied
 Message 104 by riVeRraT, posted 10-31-2005 5:50 PM LinearAq has not replied

  
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6495 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 102 of 120 (255812)
10-31-2005 2:07 PM


Take My wife, Please!
Nothing to add yet, just couldn't get that subtitle outta my mind and I had to post it

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 103 of 120 (255815)
10-31-2005 2:37 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by LinearAq
10-31-2005 1:41 PM


Re: What God gave us
First, in what way is a person who is raped "ruined for life". I am not condoning rape but you indicate that the person who was raped is held accountable for that rape. How is she ruined any more than if she were beaten up?
you've never been sexually assaulted have you?
Second, I think Yaro's point is not that these things are right or wrong according to the times but that the Bible, and God by default, condones those things.
God says it's right for a child of an unwed mother to be kept out of the congregation.
God says it's right for a man who had his genitals damaged to be kept out of the congregation of the Lord. (I wonder who checked for that?)
God condones slavery.
God condones the harsh punishments that are called for in the law.
The God that never changes must surely require us to follow those same requirements now. If He condones and even commands particular behaviors then but considers those behaviors wrong now, then what does that say about objective morals. You argue that morals should be changed based on subjective criteria. Some things are right in a primitive society but no longer are? How relativistic can you get?
the bible is not the word prime of god. it is the recorded documents compiled of a people and their opinions of their interactions with god. our president claims to talk to god and what does he do? he seeks to outlaw medical research and treatment he thinks is bad. and then he off and kills our children by sending them to die to enforce democracy (which is supposed to be instituted by a decisive people, not a conquering army). why? because he has a false view of god (and a few other things).
the people of israel saw themselves as building a pure nation full and robust and one to reach into all the world. they saw their numbers being as the stars. this explains the exclusion of the infertile and those of unverifiable parentage. their goals reflect their methods.
try a little reading comprehension. they made their laws based on their goals. and what's so wrong with relativism? we're all a little bit wrong.
This message has been edited by brennakimi, 10-31-2005 05:29 PM

And why you think you take a Ho to a Ho-tel
Ho-tell everybody, even the mayor
Reach up in the sky for the Ho-zone layer
Now C'mon playa wants a Ho always
And Ho's neva close, they open like hallways

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by LinearAq, posted 10-31-2005 1:41 PM LinearAq has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 104 of 120 (255850)
10-31-2005 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by LinearAq
10-31-2005 1:41 PM


Re: What God gave us
First, in what way is a person who is raped "ruined for life".
You mean you can't imagine how? especially if she gets pregnant. It stays on the mind of that person forever. No amount of theropy will ever erase that memory. Plus back in the OT when being a virgin, actually meant something, you would lose your virginity. Virginity was everything to a woman then. Now it seems we just don't give a hoot.
Second, I think Yaro's point is not that these things are right or wrong according to the times but that the Bible, and God by default, condones those things.
This is a blanket statement and it seems to go against everything we are trying to break down and discuss here. You are going to have to be more specific in just what you are saying that God condones.
God says it's right for a child of an unwed mother to be kept out of the congregation.
Please supply verses, then we can go over these things case by case.
God condones slavery.
We've been through that in another thread.
I suggest we keep on topic here, as most of these things have been covered already.
You argue that morals should be changed based on subjective criteria.
When did I say that?
I am saying the opposite, that morals do not change, I said it a few times.
Some things are right in a primitive society but no longer are? How relativistic can you get?
Not only right, but necessary, for our survival.
Judging by the many and varied things that can cause cancer, I would say, yes. If you have some evidence that it did not exist then, I wouldn't mind seeing it...another thread probably.
This is not my field of expertise. Has there ever been bones found with cancer on them?
Obviously, you should act in this manner if it is right according to the Bible.
Your arguements do not make much sense at all. According the bible, that has all changed, and is the only thing I can relate too now, because I live in the now, not the then, and do not pretend to know what it was like back then.
I do not make the mistake of comparing todays soceity with the soceity of long ago. But I will compare morals. The tuff part is finding out just what are the morals.
Then right and wrong are actually relative to the situation and the society?
No, just the way we deal with it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by LinearAq, posted 10-31-2005 1:41 PM LinearAq has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by Nighttrain, posted 10-31-2005 9:20 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
Funkaloyd
Inactive Member


Message 105 of 120 (255911)
10-31-2005 9:03 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by riVeRraT
10-31-2005 8:37 AM


The Bible on rape
riVeRraT writes:
I do not find stoning someone to death for rape a bad idea at all...
Let's look at it from another Biblical angle; Deuteronomy 22:28-29:
"If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives."
I presume that you wouldn't want a daughter or little sister of yours to be forced to marry a pedophile. Can hardship, the lack of a police force etc. justify a law like this?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by riVeRraT, posted 10-31-2005 8:37 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by riVeRraT, posted 10-31-2005 10:16 PM Funkaloyd has not replied

  
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