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Author Topic:   Pat Robertson on natural disasters
nator
Member (Idle past 2160 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 226 of 302 (255519)
10-29-2005 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 223 by Buzsaw
10-28-2005 9:33 PM


Re: Bashing Robertson
So, buz, is AIDS a punishment from God?
Was the US Influenza epidemic of 1918 also a punishment?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by Buzsaw, posted 10-28-2005 9:33 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 228 by Buzsaw, posted 10-30-2005 12:45 AM nator has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 227 of 302 (255566)
10-30-2005 12:35 AM
Reply to: Message 225 by jar
10-28-2005 9:58 PM


Re: Bashing Robertson
buzsaw writes:
To say there's no evidence at all shows clearly your ignorance of the subect you're debating here.
jar writes:
Start a thread on it and let's see if this time you can come up with even ONE prophecy that's ever been fulfilled. It might be interesting.
I've produced evidence for many prophecies over the years, but no matter how substantial they are, you choose to pshaw them. You remind me of the NT Pharasees who observed the miracles of Jesus and the apostles, being also shown by the OT prophecies that Jesus was the christ/messiah, setting about immediately to persecute or kill the ones performing them because they were so set in their ways and beliefs. It was these folks who had Jesus eventually crucified by the government.
Are you even yet ready to admit that natural disasters have been on the increase in recent decades since the rebirth of the nation of Israel and the reocupation of Jews to the city of Jerusalem? Pat Robertson, whom you despise and judge as blasphemous, appears to be smarter than you in this regard.
Edited to drop an s from governments.
This message has been edited by buzsaw, 10-30-2005 12:38 AM

The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by jar, posted 10-28-2005 9:58 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 229 by jar, posted 10-30-2005 9:53 AM Buzsaw has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 228 of 302 (255567)
10-30-2005 12:45 AM
Reply to: Message 226 by nator
10-29-2005 6:22 PM


Re: Bashing Robertson
Hi Schrafinator. Shall we stick to topic as per the OP? Where in it has Robertson said the natural disasters referenced were punishments from God? I understand him to be saying they were likely prophesied by God's prophets in the Biblical historical record.

The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by nator, posted 10-29-2005 6:22 PM nator has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 229 of 302 (255609)
10-30-2005 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 227 by Buzsaw
10-30-2005 12:35 AM


Re: Bashing Robertson
Are you even yet ready to admit that natural disasters have been on the increase in recent decades since the rebirth of the nation of Israel and the reocupation of Jews to the city of Jerusalem?
No, of course not. That is simply one of those nonsense statements that is the hallmark of the Fundamentalist and Evangelical. Not only is there no evidence that that is true, the evidence from ice cores, as just one example, seems to show that the last 10,000 years have been a period of remarkable consistency with nowhere near the violent natural disaster that is the norm.
Pat Robertson, whom you despise and judge as blasphemous, appears to be smarter than you in this regard.
I think despise is way to harsh a term. I fear him as I fear any demagogue. Like Haggard and Hinn and Falwell and Roberts and Swaggart and Dobson, Robertson lies with facility.
You remind me of the NT Pharasees who observed the miracles of Jesus and the apostles, being also shown by the OT prophecies that Jesus was the christ/messiah, setting about immediately to persecute or kill the ones performing them because they were so set in their ways and beliefs. It was these folks who had Jesus eventually crucified by the government.
There is one difference you fail to mention. I happen to believe in Jesus and his message, unlike the Fundies and Evagelicals that actually are trying to crucify both the truth and other individuals.
I do not judge Robertson, only his message. And his message, like the message of all Evangelicals and Fundies is one of hate, ignorance and intolerance.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by Buzsaw, posted 10-30-2005 12:35 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by Buzsaw, posted 10-30-2005 12:41 PM jar has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 230 of 302 (255640)
10-30-2005 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 229 by jar
10-30-2005 9:53 AM


Re: Bashing Robertson
Jar, one nice thing about debating you is that you are so obviously wrong on so much that it's a piece of cake winning. The downside of it is that you are such a waste of time. Anyhow, so as not to be accused of cutting and running, I'll eat up some more bandwith and respond. What you need, imo, is a few suspensions until you stop presenting these strawmen, et al.
buzsaw writes:
Are you even yet ready to admit that natural disasters have been on the increase in recent decades since the rebirth of the nation of Israel and the reocupation of Jews to the city of Jerusalem?
jar writes:
No, of course not. That is simply one of those nonsense statements that is the hallmark of the Fundamentalist and Evangelical. Not only is there no evidence that that is true, the evidence from ice cores, as just one example, seems to show that the last 10,000 years have been a period of remarkable consistency with nowhere near the violent natural disaster that is the norm.
Now jar, this is a blatant strawman. Please reread my statement which you purport to have responded to. I clearly stated that this is about the last few decades since the rebirth of Israel - not 10,000 years. Please either respond to my posts in kind and in sincerety or don't bother.
jar writes:
There is one difference you fail to mention. I happen to believe in Jesus and his message, unlike the Fundies and Evagelicals that actually are trying to crucify both the truth and other individuals.
Then why do you deny so much of what he said, like the miracles which he performed, et al? Another one of your strawmen.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by jar, posted 10-30-2005 9:53 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 231 by jar, posted 10-30-2005 12:55 PM Buzsaw has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 231 of 302 (255642)
10-30-2005 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 230 by Buzsaw
10-30-2005 12:41 PM


Re: Bashing Robertson
Then why do you deny so much of what he said, like the miracles which he performed, et al? Another one of your strawmen.
Please point out where I said that or admit that you are only misquoting and misrepresenting your opponents position yet again.
Now jar, this is a blatant strawman. Please reread my statement which you purport to have responded to. I clearly stated that this is about the last few decades since the rebirth of Israel - not 10,000 years.
What a truly stupid statement. Are you seriously implying that we should only look at the period since the establishment of Isreal and ignore all that came before? No wonder you can find prophecy in the Bible. You select only the facts that fit your preconceived notions.
Talk about willful ignorance...
Even in your simplistic imaginary Universe, your assertions don't hold up. So far you have shown no evidence that natural disasters are on the rise in either number or magnitude. Sure costs are up, more people live in exposed areas.
AbE: (that means added by edit)
Wander into chat sometime when I'm there and we can continue the discussion without filling threads if you are concerned with bandwidth.
This message has been edited by jar, 10-30-2005 11:58 AM

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by Buzsaw, posted 10-30-2005 12:41 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 232 by Buzsaw, posted 10-30-2005 4:04 PM jar has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 232 of 302 (255658)
10-30-2005 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 231 by jar
10-30-2005 12:55 PM


Re: Bashing Robertson
buzsaw writes:
Then why do you deny so much of what he said, like the miracles which he performed, et al? Another one of your strawmen.
jar writes:
Please point out where I said that or admit that you are only misquoting and misrepresenting your opponents position yet again.
Jar, I've been on this board for years. I know, you know and anyone else who's been around for long knows that you have denied all the miracles of the Bible except the virgin birth and the resurrection of Jesus -- and on one occasion you expressed doubt about one of those.
buzsaw writes:
Now jar, this is a blatant strawman. Please reread my statement which you purport to have responded to. I clearly stated that this is about the last few decades since the rebirth of Israel - not 10,000 years.
jar writes:
What a truly stupid statement. Are you seriously implying that we should only look at the period since the establishment of Isreal and ignore all that came before? No wonder you can find prophecy in the Bible. You select only the facts that fit your preconceived notions.
Jar, me old adversarical friend, is it that you've been drinking heavily, or are you really that out of it these days? The topic and all we're suppose to be addressing in this thread topic is whether the rise in number of natural disasters and loss of life and property the planet is experiencing is indicative of the fulfillment of Biblical prophecy as per Pat Robertson. What we are not suppose to be addressing is the geological and weather the planet has been experiencing for 10,000 years. I've mentioned the fulfillment of the rebirth of Israel prophecies because this corroborates/strengthens Robertsons and my position that the rise in natural disasters are evidence indicative that what the Bible predicts may (I say may) be being fulfilled or that that time is near.
jar writes:
Even in your simplistic imaginary Universe, your assertions don't hold up. So far you have shown no evidence that natural disasters are on the rise in either number or magnitude. Sure costs are up, more people live in exposed areas.
Jar, please reread the links I've cited, especially those which show that both the incidence of natural disasters and the loss of life and property are increasing in recent decades. Why don't you cut and past their statements and refute them rather than blindly and doggedly denying the facts. Please remember also, that these links don't even factor in the upspike in disasters of the last few years of the new millenium.
I don't have time for chat. Either you begin making some sense in your responses or don't expect any more of my time being expended on addressing your strawmen. You need to move to a forum where you know something about what your debating. Why do you get by with this nonsense when if I, Faith, Mike the Whiz or some other Biblical creo engaged in such conduct, we'd be suspended or even banned.
This message has been edited by buzsaw, 10-30-2005 04:07 PM

The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by jar, posted 10-30-2005 12:55 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 233 by Phat, posted 10-30-2005 4:57 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 234 by sidelined, posted 10-30-2005 5:04 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 235 by jar, posted 10-30-2005 5:08 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 236 by Asgara, posted 10-30-2005 5:14 PM Buzsaw has replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 233 of 302 (255666)
10-30-2005 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 232 by Buzsaw
10-30-2005 4:04 PM


Re: Bashing Robertson
Here is my two cents worth on the topic:
God foreknows everything that is ever gonna happen. He desires that people know the Truth...about Him and His love for us. His scriptures say that He who began(begins) a good work in us will be faithful to complete it. Thus, He initiates relationship with us and He completes it. Our job is to trust the inner unction that He gives us.
The Bible says that a wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign but that none will be given.
To spread fear and chaos theory among a populace in order to get them to come to their senses does not make sense.
I have never taken Robertson seriously. As for you, Buzsaw, I will take you seriously out of respect for you as a fellow EvC member.
I am no0t as much of a theistic evolutiopnist as Jar is, but I don't believe in some things that the Biblical literalists do.
I DO believe in the supernatural. I DO believe in the Virgin Birth and Resurrection.
I DO NOT believe that the earth is 6000 years old.
So where does that leave me in your eyes?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by Buzsaw, posted 10-30-2005 4:04 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by Buzsaw, posted 10-30-2005 9:43 PM Phat has not replied

sidelined
Member (Idle past 5898 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 234 of 302 (255667)
10-30-2005 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 232 by Buzsaw
10-30-2005 4:04 PM


Re: Bashing Robertson
buz
Jar, me old adversarical friend, is it that you've been drinking heavily, or are you really that out of it these days? The topic and all we're suppose to be addressing in this thread topic is whether the rise in number of natural disasters and loss of life and property the planet is experiencing is indicative of the fulfillment of Biblical prophecy as per Pat Robertson.
Buz, what criteria do you use to determine if something is actually happening or not? What span of time are you making the comparison over? Are we talking per capita deaths ? Are we allowing for the greater number and technological capabilities of news stations as well as internet access to once remote corners of the globe?
Please give us some emans of understanding how much you have taken into consideration the different dimensions of inlvment of different things that apply to this.
Hopefully this post will actually make it to the board

But I realize now that these people were not in science; they didn’t understand it. They didn’t understand technology; they didn’t understand their time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by Buzsaw, posted 10-30-2005 4:04 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 242 by Buzsaw, posted 10-30-2005 10:01 PM sidelined has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 235 of 302 (255669)
10-30-2005 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 232 by Buzsaw
10-30-2005 4:04 PM


Re: Bashing Robertson
Why do you get by with this nonsense when if I, Faith, Mike the Whiz or some other Biblical creo engaged in such conduct, we'd be suspended or even banned.
Classic response of the Evangelical or Fundamentalist Jihadist. No different than the Taliban or Al Queda. You want to oppress and destroy all who speak out against your ignorant and intemperate statements.
I know, you know and anyone else who's been around for long knows that you have denied all the miracles of the Bible except the virgin birth and the resurrection of Jesus -- and on one occasion you expressed doubt about one of those.
Buz old Grande Inquisitor, if that is TRUE, you should have no trouble finding examples of such statements from me. I will, however, expect you to quote them in context and not just quotemine or misquote as seems to be the common tactic of Fundies and Evangelicals. However, as has always been the case in the past, I suspect Hell will freeze over before we get any evidence.
The topic and all we're suppose to be addressing in this thread topic is whether the rise in number of natural disasters and loss of life and property the planet is experiencing is indicative of the fulfillment of Biblical prophecy as per Pat Robertson.
But here are a few quotes:
buzsaw writes:
ICR (Institute for Creation Research) says there has not been an increased incidence of earthquakes from 1900 to 2000, and I have to agree.
So, on No Less an Authority as Buzsaw, I would have to say your theory has been shot down in flames once again(and again and again and again).
And once again you bring up Biblical Prophecy. Sorry Charlie, until you can show us at least one such prophecy, there is nothing to discuss. All you have are empty assertions once again.
Now questions. Why is it Fundies and Evangelical Fanatics always feel they need to belittle the messenger and ignore the message? Are you folk really that insecure?
buzsaw writes:
Jar, me old adversarical friend, is it that you've been drinking heavily, or are you really that out of it these days?
You say:
What we are not suppose to be addressing is the geological and weather the planet has been experiencing for 10,000 years.
Not 10,000 years buz. For 4.6 Billion years. The last 10,000 years have been relatively mild and sedate compared to the norm. Don't you want to include ALL the data, or do you want to acknowledge only that small segment which you wish supported your assertions. According to no less an authority (see above) then Buz, that's not the case.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by Buzsaw, posted 10-30-2005 4:04 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by Buzsaw, posted 10-31-2005 12:53 AM jar has replied

Asgara
Member (Idle past 2292 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 236 of 302 (255670)
10-30-2005 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 232 by Buzsaw
10-30-2005 4:04 PM


Re: Bashing Robertson
please reread the links I've cited, especially those which show that both the incidence of natural disasters and the loss of life and property are increasing in recent decades
Is this the "links" you are talking about?
http://EvC Forum: Pat Robertson on natural disasters -->EvC Forum: Pat Robertson on natural disasters
Those aren't links buz, they are cuts from a search engine that doesn't give any actual links. Maybe you could find something that we could actuall use?

NOAA - HURRICANES
here is the official NOAA page listing links to historical statistics...
Page Not Found
THE DEADLIEST, COSTLIEST, AND MOST INTENSE UNITED STATES HURRICANES FROM 1900 TO 2000 - THE DEADLIEST, COSTLIEST, AND MOST INTENSE
UNITED STATES HURRICANES FROM 1900 TO 2000
Untitled Document --
lists hurricanes by decades since 1900, shows that during the twenty year period 1960-1979 both the number and intensity of landfalling U.S. hurricanes decreased sharply! Based on 1900-1959 statistics, the expected number of hurricanes and major hurricanes during the period 1960-1979 was 36 and 15, respectively. But, in fact, only 27 (or 75%) of the expected number of hurricanes struck the U.S. with only 10 major hurricanes or 67% of that expected number. The decade of the eighties showed little change to this trend. Even the decade of the nineties, showed below average landfall frequencies. It could be noted that of the most recent four decades, only the 70's and 90's were significantly below normal.
Untitled Document -- average number of hurricanes per year

USGS - EARTHQUAKE STATISTICS
http://neic.usgs.gov/neis/eqlists/7up.html ---Number of Magnitude 7.0 and Greater Earthquakes per Year,
Since 1900
http://neic.usgs.gov/neis/eqlists/eqstats.html ---Frequency of Occurrence of Earthquakes
I don't see your big increase listed here for the past century Buz.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by Buzsaw, posted 10-30-2005 4:04 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by Buzsaw, posted 10-30-2005 11:13 PM Asgara has replied

joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 237 of 302 (255672)
10-30-2005 6:07 PM


Buzsaw's faith is an oasis in the desert of the world.
I find people like buz, who like me believe in things that can't be seen, that go against every piece of evidence visible in some cases, are right everytime.
Life means more than the statistics and data that goes against a belief in a holy text. I agree with buz, it seems like God is soon. The second coming, of Jesus.

The ocean breathes salty, won't you carry it in?
In your head, in your mouth, in your soul.
And maybe we'll get lucky and we'll both grow old.
Well I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I hope so.

Replies to this message:
 Message 238 by Asgara, posted 10-30-2005 6:10 PM joshua221 has not replied
 Message 243 by Buzsaw, posted 10-30-2005 10:12 PM joshua221 has not replied
 Message 263 by nator, posted 11-01-2005 4:45 PM joshua221 has not replied

Asgara
Member (Idle past 2292 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 238 of 302 (255673)
10-30-2005 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by joshua221
10-30-2005 6:07 PM


Charlie, buz isn't claiming beliefs that go against every piece of evidence. Buz is claiming there IS evidence but can't produce it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by joshua221, posted 10-30-2005 6:07 PM joshua221 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 239 by Buzsaw, posted 10-30-2005 9:30 PM Asgara has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 239 of 302 (255699)
10-30-2005 9:30 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by Asgara
10-30-2005 6:10 PM


Hi Asgara. What everyone needs to understand is that I, unlike jar and some of his friends, am posting on topic as per the OP of this thread. My comments are relative to the statements of this thread according to forum guidelines. Jar and friends are doing their dead level best to draw me off topic, contrary to forum guidelines, so they can skew the debate to their advantage and I'm not letting them. Let me remind you and the rest exactly what the topic is. Here is the OP, since I can't seem to get this into your heads. I've emboldened and caped some words or phrases for emphasis. Please note carefully those emphasised phrases!
OP writes:
End is nigh, US preacher predicts
October 11, 2005
Washington: The high-profile American preacher Pat Robertson says recent natural disasters around the globe point to the end of the world and the imminent return of Jesus Christ.
"These things are STARTING to hit with amazing regularity," Mr Robertson told CNN on Sunday, remarking on the coincidence of the devastating earthquake that killed tens of thousands in Pakistan and India at the weekend and the recent hurricanes that tore through the southern United States and Central America.
These disasters had come less than a year after a massive tsunami levelled huge areas of South Asia, killing more than 31,000 people and leaving about 1 million homeless.
Devout Christians believe the "last days" will be marked by political and geological upheaval, and Mr Robertson said recent events showed those days might have arrived.
Quoting the Bible, the conservative Christian broadcaster said the latter days would be marked by "the birth pangs of a new order, and for anybody who knows what it's like to have a wife going in labour, you know how these labour pains begin to hit.
"What was called the blessed hope of the Bible is that one day Jesus Christ would come back again, start a whole new era, that this world order that we know would change into something that would be wonderful that we'd call the millennium," Mr Robertson said. "And before that good time comes there will be some difficult days and they will be likened to what a woman goes through in labour just before she brings forth a child."
Asked if the world was reaching this moment, he replied: "It's possible. I don't have any special revelation to say it is but the Bible does indicate such a time will happen in the end of time. And could this be it? It might be."
More than 1200 people died in Hurricane Katrina in the US and Hurricane Stan has caused up to 1000 deaths. Nearly 20,000 people died in the weekend's earthquake.
Now, Asgara, you charge that I am not able to produce the evidence. Tell me, did you read the links I have brought up and are you willing to accept them as credible, or would you care to refute them? And btw, pray tell, what evidence has jar or any one else produced to justify their bogus claims that there is no increase in natural disasters in the last few decades as per the thread OP and my claims?
Are you, Asgara, justifying jar for trying to obfuscate
by such tactics as 10,000 year strawmen arguments when that have nothing to do relative to the topic or to my or Robertson's statements?
.......And you people wonder why Faith became so indignant, why she's gone and why few Biblicalists ever care to hang in here and put up with this stuff!

The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by Asgara, posted 10-30-2005 6:10 PM Asgara has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 241 by Asgara, posted 10-30-2005 9:46 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 251 by jar, posted 10-31-2005 9:09 AM Buzsaw has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 240 of 302 (255702)
10-30-2005 9:43 PM
Reply to: Message 233 by Phat
10-30-2005 4:57 PM


Re: Bashing Robertson
Hi Phat. With all due respect, your statements have contributed nothing relative to the topic debate going on here.......and for what it's worth, I've said it over many times over the years that I'm not a yec and have never debated for a 6000 year earth.

The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by Phat, posted 10-30-2005 4:57 PM Phat has not replied

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