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Author Topic:   Pat Robertson on natural disasters
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 239 of 302 (255699)
10-30-2005 9:30 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by Asgara
10-30-2005 6:10 PM


Hi Asgara. What everyone needs to understand is that I, unlike jar and some of his friends, am posting on topic as per the OP of this thread. My comments are relative to the statements of this thread according to forum guidelines. Jar and friends are doing their dead level best to draw me off topic, contrary to forum guidelines, so they can skew the debate to their advantage and I'm not letting them. Let me remind you and the rest exactly what the topic is. Here is the OP, since I can't seem to get this into your heads. I've emboldened and caped some words or phrases for emphasis. Please note carefully those emphasised phrases!
OP writes:
End is nigh, US preacher predicts
October 11, 2005
Washington: The high-profile American preacher Pat Robertson says recent natural disasters around the globe point to the end of the world and the imminent return of Jesus Christ.
"These things are STARTING to hit with amazing regularity," Mr Robertson told CNN on Sunday, remarking on the coincidence of the devastating earthquake that killed tens of thousands in Pakistan and India at the weekend and the recent hurricanes that tore through the southern United States and Central America.
These disasters had come less than a year after a massive tsunami levelled huge areas of South Asia, killing more than 31,000 people and leaving about 1 million homeless.
Devout Christians believe the "last days" will be marked by political and geological upheaval, and Mr Robertson said recent events showed those days might have arrived.
Quoting the Bible, the conservative Christian broadcaster said the latter days would be marked by "the birth pangs of a new order, and for anybody who knows what it's like to have a wife going in labour, you know how these labour pains begin to hit.
"What was called the blessed hope of the Bible is that one day Jesus Christ would come back again, start a whole new era, that this world order that we know would change into something that would be wonderful that we'd call the millennium," Mr Robertson said. "And before that good time comes there will be some difficult days and they will be likened to what a woman goes through in labour just before she brings forth a child."
Asked if the world was reaching this moment, he replied: "It's possible. I don't have any special revelation to say it is but the Bible does indicate such a time will happen in the end of time. And could this be it? It might be."
More than 1200 people died in Hurricane Katrina in the US and Hurricane Stan has caused up to 1000 deaths. Nearly 20,000 people died in the weekend's earthquake.
Now, Asgara, you charge that I am not able to produce the evidence. Tell me, did you read the links I have brought up and are you willing to accept them as credible, or would you care to refute them? And btw, pray tell, what evidence has jar or any one else produced to justify their bogus claims that there is no increase in natural disasters in the last few decades as per the thread OP and my claims?
Are you, Asgara, justifying jar for trying to obfuscate
by such tactics as 10,000 year strawmen arguments when that have nothing to do relative to the topic or to my or Robertson's statements?
.......And you people wonder why Faith became so indignant, why she's gone and why few Biblicalists ever care to hang in here and put up with this stuff!

The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by Asgara, posted 10-30-2005 6:10 PM Asgara has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 241 by Asgara, posted 10-30-2005 9:46 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 251 by jar, posted 10-31-2005 9:09 AM Buzsaw has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 240 of 302 (255702)
10-30-2005 9:43 PM
Reply to: Message 233 by Phat
10-30-2005 4:57 PM


Re: Bashing Robertson
Hi Phat. With all due respect, your statements have contributed nothing relative to the topic debate going on here.......and for what it's worth, I've said it over many times over the years that I'm not a yec and have never debated for a 6000 year earth.

The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by Phat, posted 10-30-2005 4:57 PM Phat has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 242 of 302 (255708)
10-30-2005 10:01 PM
Reply to: Message 234 by sidelined
10-30-2005 5:04 PM


Re: Bashing Robertson
sidelined writes:
Buz, what criteria do you use to determine if something is actually happening or not?
Hi sidelined. What criteria? That depends on what time frame is being discussed and I've made that clear here, I hope. Read my posts carefully and you'll see what criteria I've used.
My friend, all you need do is reread my recent posts carefully and it's all there. This thread was created for the sole purpose of bashing Robertson, it appears. The problem is that someone has come on after the pack joined in on the bashing to defend the man who's not here to defend himself; someone who cares to set the record straight as to exactly what he said, why he said it and whether he's as nuts as everyone is unjustifiably making him out to be. Buzsaw is here bringing some just balance to this lop-sided board and right now, specifically to this thread, if you will.

The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by sidelined, posted 10-30-2005 5:04 PM sidelined has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by Silent H, posted 10-31-2005 5:23 AM Buzsaw has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 243 of 302 (255712)
10-30-2005 10:12 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by joshua221
10-30-2005 6:07 PM


The kind statements are appreciated, profex. Yes, I'm a man of faith, but that faith is not blind. We Biblicalists need to use the evidence we have base our faith on and there's plenty of it. I'm attempting to show that to be the case here. The apostle Paul told young Timothy, "Prove all things," and I think he was using that word, prove in the broad sense of the term as, to substantiate.

The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by joshua221, posted 10-30-2005 6:07 PM joshua221 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by nator, posted 11-01-2005 4:49 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 244 of 302 (255725)
10-30-2005 11:13 PM
Reply to: Message 236 by Asgara
10-30-2005 5:14 PM


Re: Bashing Robertson
Asgara, first, you will find short term variables which buck the trend and second, one of the links and quotes below explain that earthquakes alone are not representative of the overall disaster trend which includes earthquakes. Here are some links which can be accessed. My purpose in the other quote was to offer a sampling of the dozens of websites which deal with the overall increase in disasters over recent decades.
link writes:
However, about two-thirds of the increase is real and the result of rises in so-called hydro-meteorological disasters, Guha-Sapir said. These disasters include droughts, tsunamis, hurricanes, typhoons and floods, and they have been increasing over the past 25 years. In 1980, there were only about 100 such disasters reported per year, but that number has risen to more than 300 a year since 2000.
In contrast, natural geologic disasters, such as volcanic eruptions, earthquakes, landslides and avalanches, have remained steady in recent decades.
What's going on?
Scientists believe the increase in hydro-meteorological disasters is due to a combination of natural and human-caused factors. Global warming is increasing the temperatures of Earth's oceans and atmosphere, leading to more intense storms of all types, including hurricanes.
Natural decadal variations in the frequency and intensity of hurricanes are also believed to be a contributing factor, as are large-scale temperature fluctuations in the tropical waters of the Eastern Pacific Ocean, known as El Nio and La
MSN | Outlook, Office, Skype, Bing, Breaking News, and Latest Videos - 55k
link writes:
According to the EM-DAT, the total natural disasters reported each year has been steadily increasing in recent decades, from 78 in 1970 to 348 in 2004.
Guha-Sapir said that a portion of that increase is artificial, due in part to better media reports and advances in communications. Another reason is that beginning in the 1980s, agencies like CRED and the US Agency for International Development (USAID) began actively looking for natural disasters.
"Like in medicine, if you go out into a village and look for cases you find much more than if you just sit back and let people come to you when they're sick," Guha-Sapir said.
However, about two-thirds of the increase is real and the result of rises in so-called hydro-meteorological disasters, Guha-Sapir said. These disasters include droughts, tsunamis, hurricanes, typhoons and floods and have been increasing over the past 25 years. In 1980, there were only about 100 such disasters reported per year but that number has risen to over 300 a year since 2000.
Earth News - Environmental Science Articles 051017_natural_disasters.html

The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by Asgara, posted 10-30-2005 5:14 PM Asgara has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by Trixie, posted 10-30-2005 11:45 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 252 by Asgara, posted 10-31-2005 10:49 AM Buzsaw has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 246 of 302 (255739)
10-31-2005 12:36 AM
Reply to: Message 245 by Trixie
10-30-2005 11:45 PM


Re: Bashing Robertson
Trixie writes:
Is it my imagination, or have you just managed to refute your own argument? Your first line states
Asgara, first, you will find short term variables which buck the trend......
Since you're only looking at figures since 1970 are you sure you're not basing your argument on
short term variables which buck the trend
Your point is well taken, Trixie, but Asgara's variables were based on only one aspect of the total disaster types which was hurricanes. My statements are based on the totality of each and every kind of disaster. I believe if you create a graph of the past few decades you will see a significant overall increase. Consider also, that the closer you get to the end of this age/era of the world, there will, if the prophecies are correct, be even a more significant upspike in the graph as the time draws near.
This evidence of the accuracy and present time significance in the end time prophecies are not only corroborated by the prophecies on the reemergence of the nation of Israel, but on What the bible says about wars and Armageddon at the time of the last days. They will be in the middle east and the nations will be drawn into the area. Ezekiel, chapters 37, 38 and 39, written way before Christ prophesy not only the scattering of Israel, but the rebirth of it in a latter time of unwalled villages, et al, focusing in on a confederacy of nations in the middle east which will assemble to invade the newborn nation, those nations being the very nations which are more or less confederated at his time in history, working to anhilate the nation. There has never been a confederacy of such nations before for this purpose. More is prophesied about this by other prophets, like Zachariah, especially chapter14. These things are also bolstered by other prophecies such as the NT Revelation 13 technology of speaking images viewed by the world, a global economy based on a number system, et al, all developed since about the time of the rebirth of Israel as a nation.
With all this corroborating support, I believe Pat Robertson has it together in the remarks about natural disasters. I'm certainly not praying for disasters. Heck, my region could be next. I pray not, but we're all caught up in it. My stakes are in the resurrection of the just, justified by Jesus's sacrifice for those receiving him as savior. According to the prophecies, it's all going to work for the good, though, as a wonderful millenial age having a wonderful climate as was pre-flood is prophesied also. I have an hypothesis on how this will come, and the global warming as well as the other stuff will work to relatively suddenly change the global atmosphere so as to provide the perfect climate.

The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by Trixie, posted 10-30-2005 11:45 PM Trixie has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 247 of 302 (255741)
10-31-2005 12:53 AM
Reply to: Message 235 by jar
10-30-2005 5:08 PM


Re: Bashing Robertson
buzsaw writes:
quote:
ICR (Institute for Creation Research) says there has not been an increased incidence of earthquakes from 1900 to 2000, and I have to agree.
jar writes:
So, on No Less an Authority as Buzsaw, I would have to say your theory has been shot down in flames once again(and again and again and again).
As I've shown in one of the links, the earthquake stats don't cut the musterd for your argument. It's the overall disaster picture which you must consider.
jar writes:
Not 10,000 years buz. For 4.6 Billion years. The last 10,000 years have been relatively mild and sedate compared to the norm. Don't you want to include ALL the data, or do you want to acknowledge only that small segment which you wish supported your assertions. According to no less an authority (see above) then Buz, that's not the case.
You can talk to yourself all by yourself till the cows come home in your own little corner here jar about the thousands and billions of years, if you doggedly insist on disregarding the forum guidelines, leading off topic, because the topic has clearly nothing to do with eons past. You should be ashamed, moderating others and suspending some for conduct no worse than this.

The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by jar, posted 10-30-2005 5:08 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by jar, posted 10-31-2005 7:37 AM Buzsaw has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 256 of 302 (255925)
10-31-2005 11:09 PM
Reply to: Message 252 by Asgara
10-31-2005 10:49 AM


Re: Bashing Robertson
Asgara writes:
So buz, you are saying that the last 100 years is short term? But I thought you told jar that these types of things have been increasing in "recent decades." You can't have it both ways buz, either we look at the last 10 decades or we call that short term and we go further back.
1. Go back and read all of me. More than once, I have made it clear that I am talking about the decades since Israel became a nation and that the prophecies pertaining to the middle east, Israel et al corroborate/strengthen the argument that the increase in natural disasters over those last decades up until the present are significant prophetically.
2. I'm not getting where I gave you the notion that we were talking 100 years. Please note that when I brought forward the OP of this thread I emphasised words and terms in that OP which specified that Robertson was referring to recent events. How many times do I have to tell you people this? If I stop responding to the incessant insistence by counterparts that we go further back, don't be surprised. It's getting me irritated and it's off topic as per the OP. You and jar as moderators should honor that.
Asgara writes:
OK, we have shown that hurricanes and earthquakes are not increasing. How about the tsunamis you listed?
No, we have shown that earthquakes have not increased up until 2000 and that though hurricanes have had lull years, the overall weather related natural disasters are on the increase due to several factors, including global warming, et al. I have shown also that overall all disasters combined are on the increase in recent decades.
Btw, I would need HTML to access your link. If it's on tsunamis perse, please remember thatwe're talking combined disaster incidents and not individual causes.
Asgara writes:
Oh, buz? Please take note that these links I have been giving you are from official sites such as NOAA and USGS.
But having read your articles, here is the first link off the MSNBC
Earth News - Environmental Science Articles
So far buz, all you have produced is a word for word news report of a livescience report from the Center for Research on Epidemiology of Disasters (CRED) in Brussels, Belgium.
I have the info from the CRED database and will look at their figures later, but now I have to leave for work.
But you're picking and choosing what will skew the debate to your advantage. The thing for you to do, if my link has false information is to specify what in it is false and we will talk about that.
Btw, speaking of the NOAA, check out this special report on natural disaster landfall hurricanes:
SPECIAL REPORT: writes:
The Increasing Frequency of Major Hurricanes Making Landfall on the USA...
(A WebPennys.com Exclusive Report)
Last year... in 2004... 4 major Hurricanes slammed the coast of Florida... each one of these Hurricanes was a minimum Cat 3 when it made landfall, and one, Hurricane Charley was actually a Cat 4... it was a historic occurrence... one that many people thought of as a 1-of event, or a fluke.
This year, there has already been 3 Hurricanes make landfall on the USA... 2 of these Hurricanes (Katrina and Rita) have both reached Cat 5 levels, another historic event in itself.
The list of historic major Hurricanes making landfall recorded by NOAA reads like this... (note that NOAA hasn't updated their page yet to include the 2005 storms... which I've included below)...
1900 Galveston Hurricane
1919 Atlantic-Gulf Hurricane
1926 Great Miami Hurricane
1928 San Felipe-Okeechobee Hurricane
1935 Florida Keys Labor Day Hurricane
1938 New England Hurricane
1944 Great Atlantic Hurricane
1954 Hurricane Carol
1954 Hurricane Edna
1954 Hurricane Hazel
1955 Hurricane Connie
1955 Hurricane Diane
1957 Hurricane Audrey
1960 Hurricane Donna
1969 Hurricane Camille
1972 Hurricane Agnes
1983 Hurricane Alicia
1988 Hurricane Gilbert
1989 Hurricane Hugo
1992 Hurricane Andrew
1995 Hurricane Opal
1998 Hurricane Mitch
1999 Hurricane Floyd
2000 Hurricane Keith
2001 Hurricane Iris
2003 Hurricane Isabel
2004 Hurricane Charley
2004 Hurricane Frances
2004 Hurricane Ivan
2004 Hurricane Jeanne
2005 Hurricane Dennis
2005 Hurricane Katrina
2005 Hurricane Rita
When considering the data... even if you completely ignore Global Warming speculation, and look purely at the stats by decade... you'll see the USA is currently caught-up in a increasing trend of major hurricanes making landfall on it's shores... and the current trend being established over the past 2 decades would seem to indicate that the odds of frequency diminishing back to pre-1970 levels anytime soon would be somewhat remote...
http://www.webpennys.com/hurricane_frequency_study/
It should be noted also that nearly all the meteorologists are predicting that the planet is entering a long term period of severe weather due to the warming of the sea waters, global warming and other factors.
EDITED TO ADD: PLEASE NOTE THAT ALL BUT SIX OF THE MAJOR LANDFALL HURRICANES IN THE NOAA LIST ARE AFTER ISRAEL BECAME A NATION AND MOST OF THEM AFTER THE WORLD FOCUS TURNED ON THE MIDDLE EAST AS PER BIBLICAL PROPHECY.
This message has been edited by buzsaw, 10-31-2005 11:16 PM
Edit II to add website link
This message has been edited by buzsaw, 11-02-2005 10:57 AM

The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by Asgara, posted 10-31-2005 10:49 AM Asgara has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by Asgara, posted 11-01-2005 12:03 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 259 by Funkaloyd, posted 11-01-2005 3:24 AM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 261 by PaulK, posted 11-01-2005 7:50 AM Buzsaw has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 257 of 302 (255926)
10-31-2005 11:40 PM
Reply to: Message 251 by jar
10-31-2005 9:09 AM


Re: Why Faith left?
jar writes:
Faith left because she was shown time after time, thread after thread, message after message, to be wrong. Hopefully she is using this time to rethink her positions and to reassess her conclusions and faith.
"To be wrong?" You, jar, are admonishing others for being wrong?
jar writes:
Truth will win out over ignorance and intolerance.
....and it appears that truth is winning out with Robertson on the side of factual truth, so far as the OP goes, and the intolerant bashers on the side of ignorance so far as judging the Robertson quotes posted in the OP.

The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by jar, posted 10-31-2005 9:09 AM jar has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 262 of 302 (256055)
11-01-2005 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 261 by PaulK
11-01-2005 7:50 AM


Re: Bashing Robertson
PaulK writes:
As well as showing an increase in natural disasters you've also got to have a prophecy. And you don't.
The disasters evidence is just that. It's not empirical evidence that we have a prophecy, true, but it's evidence. As I have shown, it's corroborated by other evidence suggesting prophecy. As in science, the more corroborating evidence you have, the more of a case you make that you have a valid theory which to work on.
Corroborating evidence as follows:
1. Prophecies of Israel's regathering and rebirth as a nation prophesied for latter days at a time when the cities and villages of Israel will not have walls; at a time when Israel will be surrounded by hostile nations; at a time when there will be a confederation of nations which will emerge on Israel; at a time when another block of nations will protest the invasion; at a time when nations north of Israel and nations like Libya and Etheopia (i.e. Northern Africa) will be confederate with the nations surrounding Israel; at a time when all the nations of the world will be drawn into one conflict. For all this please read carefully, Ezekiel, chapters 37, 38 and 39 and Zechariah 14 for starters.
2. Prophecy of high tech where all nations of the world will be able to view an event in one spot on the planet. Revelation 11:9, Revelation 17:18:9.
3. Prophecy of a time when a significantly prominent city of the world will be able to be destroyed in one hour, implying nuclear energy tech. Revelation 18:10
4. Prophecy of tech for global munber/mark monetary system. Revelation 13:16,17 with the power of global enforcement on the people of all nations.
5. Prophecy of tech for global enforcement of all nations to view a speaking image and worship the image. Our TVs and computers, et al make this possible with 2 way interaction via electronic media. Revelation 13:14,15
6. At a time when knowledge and travel will be greatly increased: Daniel 12:4.
7. At a time when, according to the prophecy of Jesus, the city of Jerusalem, after gentile occupation, will again be occupied by Jews. Luke 21:24
There's much more, including famine and drout, but my point is that all this evidence at the same time of natural disaster evidence lends to the good possibility that the natural disasters prophecies are indeed bonafide prophecy as the text claims.
That all these prophecies are either being now fulfilled in a relatively short timespan or have recently been fulfilled lends credence to each of the individual prophecies. These prophecies which I've mentioned all are prophecies which the text from which they come, addresses what the prophets call the latter days, day of the Lord, end time, et al.
Please note also that Mr. Robertson did not claim these natural disasters to be empirical evidence in themselves, but that they seem to be suggesting latter day prophecy fulfillment.

The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by PaulK, posted 11-01-2005 7:50 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by PaulK, posted 11-01-2005 4:57 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 267 by jar, posted 11-01-2005 8:29 PM Buzsaw has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 265 of 302 (256059)
11-01-2005 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 259 by Funkaloyd
11-01-2005 3:24 AM


Re: Bashing Robertson
Funkaloyd writes:
Buz, even if it were shown that there has been no increase in natural disasters since 1948, would that change your mind regarding the end being near?
Anyway, I seriously recommend that you read this. It's written by a Christian (and not exactly a liberal one).
As I've stated, according to the prophecies, one absolutely necessary prophetic event to happen before one can state that the end time is near is the re-emergence of the nation of Israel and global focus on that region. That, after all, is where Jesus is prophesied to return and for the last big conflict of Armageddon to take place. So those who claimed the end time was near any time in history before 1948 simply didn't do their homework on the prophecies. If it could be shown that natural disasters were not on the increase, I'd simply enlarge the timeframe a few decades, but once Israel is in place, it shouldn't be too long, especially when, as I have shown, natural disasters overall are on the increase in both frequency and in destruction.
Btw, fyi, What we are observing as to natural disasters is just the beginning of some much worse times ahead. Hang onto your hats, folks! It aintagona get better before it gets worse and as the prophet Isaiah put it, in the end, few men will be left upon the earth (relatively few) by the time Jesus returns.

The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by Funkaloyd, posted 11-01-2005 3:24 AM Funkaloyd has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by Funkaloyd, posted 11-01-2005 8:48 PM Buzsaw has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 269 of 302 (256115)
11-02-2005 12:56 AM
Reply to: Message 266 by PaulK
11-01-2005 4:57 PM


Re: Bashing Robertson
PaulK writes:
So which of these links natural disasters o a restoration of Judah (not Israel because the tribes of Israel are still missing).
Ezekiel 37-39 doesn't.
Chapter 37 says there will be one, not two kingdoms. So far the Jews are back and there is one nation/kingdom as the prophecy states. There have been people coming from many nations, including Ethiopia. I don't know which tribe/tribes they are. Yes, there's tribes missing, but with modern DNA tech, it may be possible to sort the others out soon. If not, when Jesus sets up that kingdom after the 2nd advent, he will likely do the sorting out. Revelation 7 prophesies that 144,000 Jew and Israelitish men, 12,000 from each tribe, who've not been married will be on Mt Zion, the Temple Mount when Jesus arrives, so there will likely be a way of locating and sorting out these folks. The Ethiopeans were black skinned, I understand, but identifiable. I believe they were called Jews. At any rate the city of Jerusalem is out of Gentile hands as Jesus's prophecy states, so that, imo can be regarded as corroborating evidence.
PaulK writes:
Zechariah doesn't.Your misreadings of Revelations don't
Again, that wasn't the stated purpose for citing my readings in Revelation. Even if you think the tribe factor fails, you still have the other corroborating evidence which I cited to refute.
PaulK writes:
(As for destroying cities, ou can find examlpes in Old Testament times - Sodom and Gomorrah for a start ! No high tech needed !)
But there's a difference. The text does not say Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by fire in one hour. To accomplish that, you need an extraordinary blast/explosion.
PaulK writes:
Daniel 12 refers to the second century BC !
Read the text carefully, my friend. Go to Daniel 11:40 which reads, ....at the time of the end...... Then go to 12:1 which reads, At that time, so the time when the prophecy is to be fulfilled is clearly the end times in context. Chapter 12 also deals with the time of the resurrection of the dead, et al.
PaulK writes:
And we've gone over Luke 21 before as you know. And I know why you don't talk about the disasters mentioned there - that doesn't fit your supposed timescale - not when you read it in parallel with the other versions.
My purpose in Luke 21 was to show that after a time of gentile occupation, Semites will again reoccupy the land, g-Gentiles out and specifically the city of Jerusalem is cited.
PaulK writes:
So no, the only thing your post tells me is that you know that I'm right. You DON'T have a prophecy that predicts that an increase in natural disasters will follow the events of 1948.
I didn't expect you, PaulK, to be told anything. Your mind appears to be closed tight to the possibility of the a higher, more energetic form of intelligence in the universe, other than observed on earth, i.e, what we humankinds call the supernatural. But for the ones who really want to learn, there's evidence that the prophecies are being fulfilled, that a higher form of intelligence does exist and that the latter days prophesied via this intelligence may likely be emerging upon the scene. Each observer who looks at that evidence, at least now knows it's there and can make up their own minds as to whether it's significant. At least I've shown that Pat Robertson's statements as per the OP do make some sense, no matter how you interpret the evidence.
Edited to add the rest of PaulK's message
This message has been edited by buzsaw, 11-02-2005 01:00 AM

The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by PaulK, posted 11-01-2005 4:57 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 272 by PaulK, posted 11-02-2005 2:41 AM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 273 by Silent H, posted 11-02-2005 4:56 AM Buzsaw has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 270 of 302 (256116)
11-02-2005 1:06 AM
Reply to: Message 268 by Funkaloyd
11-01-2005 8:48 PM


Re: Bashing Robertson
Funkaloyd writes:
Don't you think that maybe the thousands of eschatologist theologians that came before our time thought exactly the same thing?
What they thought doesn't count. The only thing that counts is what does the prophecy texts say will be in place when the time is right. It clearly states that Israel will be no longer occupied by Gentiles and the other stuff. They had no basis for claiming the end times had arrived.

The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by Funkaloyd, posted 11-01-2005 8:48 PM Funkaloyd has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 271 of 302 (256117)
11-02-2005 1:14 AM
Reply to: Message 267 by jar
11-01-2005 8:29 PM


Re: Bashing Robertson
Jar, all Icare to say to you is read the specific texts I cited thoughtfully, prayerfully and carefully. Then go figure. Your mind, too is completely closed and I'm not wasting any more of my busy life on stuff you distort so badly.

The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by jar, posted 11-01-2005 8:29 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 274 by Silent H, posted 11-02-2005 4:58 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 275 by nator, posted 11-02-2005 8:52 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 285 by jar, posted 11-02-2005 11:01 AM Buzsaw has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 276 of 302 (256165)
11-02-2005 9:08 AM
Reply to: Message 272 by PaulK
11-02-2005 2:41 AM


Re: Bashing Robertson
PaulK writes:
In other words your whole post was intended to evade the point.
You don't have a prophecy that links an increase in natural disasters to the events of 1948. And you know it. That is why you try to evade the point again and again
Read the stats on landfall major hurricanes since 1948, for example. Nearly all of them since 1900 were after 1948. I've shown where the upspike in the frequency since '48 is significant. Link this data to the prophecies and go figure. As I said, you don't want to be bothered by the facts. I'm wasting my time, except that likely some reader guests who aren't part of the close knit comradery here who support one another, right or wrong, will read and learn. It's very obvious who's being objective here.
PaulK writes:
Even then you somehow manage to misrepresent Ezekiel 37. You even manage to miss the latter half of Ezekiel 37:22 (it does not just say that there will be a single nation, does it ? it says that there will be one nation INSTEAD OF TWO reuniting the kingdoms of Israel and Judah. Modern Israel is at most a reestablishment of Judah - and not as a kingdom).
I'm not missing anything. it clearly says that there will be one kingdom, not two. Skew it all you want, but you can't read more than one nation in the land, no matter how you cut it and that's what we are observing. The Ezekiel text says that the nations will invade at Armageddon, but their presence there will be very short lived and only 1/6 of the hoard of invaders will survive.
PaulK writes:
As for your other claims, no duration is given for the destruction of Sodom and Gomorroah (although I will note that nuclear weapons will destroy a city in rather less than an hour)
Oh, come now. It's obvious you're getting real desperate for debate fodder now, PaulK. This's simply straining at gnats and swallowing camels on your part. It'll likely take roughly that long for the major blast effect and smoke to settle.
As for the rest of you're post, its simple yadda, not worth a response. You're running outa steam, my friend, claiming victory when your down on the count and about out.
Some of you people here are laughable, as one observes how your exclusive secularist core here hang together and come running to one another's support, no matter how weak your argument may be, with even some of the moderators chiming in, ignoring the rediculous obfuscative off topic tactics used by some of you, like jar's feeble attempt to lengthen the timeframe of the subject to as long as billions of years.

The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by PaulK, posted 11-02-2005 2:41 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by PaulK, posted 11-02-2005 9:37 AM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 279 by Asgara, posted 11-02-2005 9:56 AM Buzsaw has replied

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