I'm trying: a stairway to heaven?

Fixed your typos. As i mentioned in another thread, you seem to be contradicting yourself here. In one quote, paraphrasing what you say here, you say that "Works subsequent to receiving the Holy Spirit don't have damnatory value." However, paraphrasing another quote, you say that, "Whilst the wages of sin is death being something earned -- wages in the form of damnation."Looking at the damnation by failing side of the debate, if indeed works subsequent to receiving the Holy Spirit don't have damnatory value, then how can the wages of sin be something earned?I'll maintain what I've been saying all along: We can do nothing to 'earn' our salvation. In fact, we have to do nothing -- nothing more than be docile to the motion of the Holy Spirit. God will do the work for us if we are simply open to his Spirit.When we fail it's our own fault -- because we've resisted God's Spirit. When we succeed we give glory to God -- because we have been moved by God's Spirit to do so. I don't think I can make this any simpler -- and I think it's plainly evident all throughout the Scripture.This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 10-29-2005 07:33 AMThis message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 10-29-2005 07:50 AM

A few simple questions.Did Adam go to hell?What do you feel was the end result of original sin?Do you believe the "Spirit of God" referenced in the Hebrew Scriptures (aka Old Testament) is a reference to the Holy Spirit?What happens to babies if they die before they believe or know Jesus?How were the Israelites of the Hebrew Scriptures saved from the damnation of hell if they didn't know Christ yet?If Jesus indeed takes on the wages of sin for us, does this also mean that he'll endure our hangovers for us too.

...or maybe not.But that's another thread, isn't it?

Strange.Where is there a reference to "hell" in the Hebrew Scriptures?I thought the Christian concept of hell was stolen from the pagans. Which "old covenant" are we refering to?Noah's?Abrahams's?Moses'Solomon's?Now that I think of it, is the term "old covenant" even found in the Hebrew Scriptures? If so, which covenant is it talking about? Or are we talking about the Christian perspective of the "older coventant" which Paul seems to refer to under Moses?

I know that, but I didn't think many traditional Jewish people actually thought it refered to anything beyond the grave itself: ie', dirt.If Brian's going to stress that Christian's have to accept the Israelite God warts and all, it would at least be nice if he could clarify exactly what the warts are -- and according to which view at that.

Hi again. No. I'm talking about your previous message in which the following is recorded... Please note that I'm trying to debate with iano about the finer points of salvation within the generally assumed Christian contexts. You're apparently trying to throw the direction of my inquiry back into the finer (and more obscure) details found within the Hebrew Scriptures. See how iano is stressing that only those who know Christ will be saved -- and see how I'm asking him how the people within the Hebrew Scriptures were saved if they didn't know Christ?It seems to me that iano is indirectly admitting that the people of the Hebrew Scriptures knew Christ back then -- and that this "knowledge" was sufficient for salvation even though they didn't know exactly who they were worshipping.Besides that, the Christian Scriptures, as I pointed out before, do not seem to make this critical distinction between before Christ and after Christ in regards to the co-heirship of the non-Israelites. Non-Israelites were apparently always co-heirs with the Israelites well before Christ came -- even if the Israelites and the non-Israelites did not know this.I've already pointed this out (to iano) in Ephesians 3:4-6 NIV back in the Sola Scriptura thread: Message 98.Furthermore, as I pointed out to iano, the Christian Scriptures note that sin is not taken into account when there is no law. In addition to this, the Christian Scriptures clearly sate that "all who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law."When I read a passage like "sin is not taken into account when there is no law", I'm reading someone who judges in proportion to what is revealed.Similarly, when I read "all who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law", I'm reading a passage which quite explicitly states that those who "know better" will be judged "more harshly".What do these passages mean to you? To iano? Yes, of course I am. But my questions to him are not of the same nature as your questions to me. Yes. I know all this.What do you think David meant when he said he will see his son again -- the one who passed away after 7 days? And yet the Christian concept of hell bears a striking resemblance to the Greek concept of Hades -- more so than the Hebrew concept of Sheol. I will also note that Hades did not require specific beliefs in order to avoid its despair. One's actions were basically all that counted -- and good actions enabled you to avoid it.I think a problem arizes within reading the Hebrew Scriptures within a Christian context. Although the tragic deaths and torments of those under the Israelite's law were seen as symbolic of being cast out, this doesn't necessarilly imply damnation later within the Christian context. Many people were executed back during the days of the Israelites for reasons of guilt that today (by Christian standards) they would no longer be considered guilty of.To assume that physical execution under the "Old Testament Law" necessarilly equals spiritual damantion under the "New Covenant Gospel" is wrong in my opinion.In the case of Noah and later Lot, we definitely see a kind of physical judgement from God which (in Christian Scriptures) is seen as being symbolic of spiritual damnation.However, there are many other types of physical executions for reasons which, as I noted before, people would no longer be considered guitly of if they were living in the age of Christ. Even in the case of Noah and Lot, I'm also sure that some that perished were perishing for reasons that they had no control over. Ezekial quite plainly states that the soul that sins will die. Actually, I do picture God as vengeful, warrior God who has fought many battles alongside me in my most troubling spiritual times. Not sure where you get this picture of the Father Time/Aunt Jamima delux combo. In your opinion of course. There's no doubt that innocent babies are slaughtered by people who are both for God and people who are against God. There isn't, however, justification, in my opinion, that punishment resulting in physical death under the "Old Testement" necessarilly equals spiritual death within the "New Testament".If so, then one has to also wonder what the physical retributions (which did not result in death but rather a part of the body or a monetary sum for example) were symbolic of on "spiritual level" within the current age?For example, does "paying a sum" or "serving time" equal a delay in one's entry into heaven after death due to some sin commited and not yet atoned for? Go tell that to Moses and Abraham, both of whom delegated with God in order to try to save others from punishment. Probably because I'm not aware of any 55 year old severly mentally handicapped man who doesn't have the capacity to understand the gospel within the Hebrew Scriptures.When I was talking to iano about this, I was refering to pasages like this: and this... Do you desire this poor old man to go to hell? But I digress. The Christian Scriptures plainly state over and over again, and in various ways, that God judges in proportion to that which is revealed. It can be succintly stated in Jesus's famous words, "Forgive them Father, for they know no what they do." Happilly? Do you have a problem with worshipping a God who is like that?It seems to me that you do.Anyway, I guess I do have a problem with how you've presented God because in my reading of the Scriptures I don't see a God like the one you're presenting. Are we allowed to pick and chose which warts we're going to adhere too?Maybe Christ is like the Compound-W of covenanted warts. Yes, I know.You do realize that I'm not asking this question because I don't know, correct?I'm asking to see how much you know.See...take a look below... And what covenant would that be? Yes, that would be the most accurate approach, wouldn't it?

Iano, I think Legend makes a good point here.

I can indentify with a lot of what you've said here brennakimi.

I am reading. So far Legend seems to be doing a good job defending his position.As far as a biblical defence is concerned, please start a new thread for it. I'm currently involved in several other in-depth debates right now -- but I think I can spare some time for one more.

Okay, let's take a look at a situation about breaking the law before I go into a Scriptural discourse on the subject.We see two people racing down the highway.One driver is an assistant teacher with a background in graphic design. The other driver is a police officer who is off duty.The speed limit in the area is about 100 kph.Both drivers are doing approximately 120 kph when an on-duty police officer spots the speeding cars on the radar gun.The on-duty police officer then chases after the two drivers at a speed of 140 kph (breaking the law in order to enforce it) eventually pulling over the two drivers.The on-duty police officer first goes to the assistant teacher with a background in graphic design. He patiently explains to him that he was speeding, writes out the speeding ticket, and then allows the assistant teacher with a background in graphic design to drive off with the knowledge that he must pay his fine by a certain due date or face charges.The on-duty police officer then goes to the off-duty police officer, recognizes him and says, "Hey Joe, what the heck were you doing? C'mon, you crazy guy! Get the heck out of here." The on-duty police officer, in this instance, actually lets the off-duty police officer drive off without having to pay a fine -- because he was on the "same side".Most people would not consider this fair at all. In fact, most people would look at a situation like this and note that the force in this example was displaying signs of internal corruption.However, in your analogy, you're basically saying that we Christians are like the off-duty police officer, essentially evading punishment because we're on the "same side as God".Does this sound fair?I will note that the Scriptures do say that God is no respecter of persons. The Scriptures also indicate that God hates a dishonest judge. He also hates when people use improper scales, which is symbolic of corruption when dealing with legal matters. I've also pointed out passages which do seem to indicate that Christians can lose their salvation -- thereby opening the door to a case of damnation by works.I'm not sure where you want me to go with this?

Ok...let's build on this and infuse a good portion of Scriptural references in an attempt to verify or falsify it. But that is not justice iano. That's called corruption when someone is forgiven simply because they know someone special -- or is affiliated with a certain group.You said in another thread: However, the Scriptural passages in Romans do make it abundantly clear that God is not a respecter of persons.For example: Some translate this last verse as "For there is no respect of persons with God."Consequently, what you are portraying -- by saying that God pays the fine for those who know him but leaves the fines of those who do not know him unpaid -- is exactly what Paul says does not happen.Furthermore, Paul then continues to discuss this in detail as follows: This means to me that only those who know the law will be judged by it. Here we have Paul saying that only those who obey the law are those who will be declared righteous. If Paul's words were being centrally focused solely on Christ, he certainly would've said at this point: but it is only Christ who obeys the law only Christ who will be declared righteous.But, since Paul is speaking in the plural sense "those", it seems more than fair to conclude that Paul is not speaking of the singular phenomenon of the Messiah here. He is speaking of anyone who obeys the law.Paul goes on to discuss how the Gentiles themselves do things by nature required by the law. He even notes that their ability to naturally do things required the law is evidence that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts. Paul then explains very plainly that this will take place on the day of judgement -- just as his gospel declares... What do these passages mean to you?I think they clearly state, among many other things, that God is not a respecter of persons in the way you've presented him: forgiving only those who know him. I agree. I agree here too. That's right -- and that's the role of us as Christians too, we have to pay the price for others who do not know God so that we can lead them into heaven by the power of the Holy Spirit.Paul seems to think so too by the way... Furthermore, Paul continually warns about becoming conceited in his writings.You said in your other message: Easy: When those employing the law end up being eternally damned by it because they thoroughly abused it.But let's continue. It's appallingly corrupt to say that this is even slightly considered fair in the eyes of God -- the same God who is apparently able to peer into the hearts of all people and judge them in proportion to what their limited human experiences have enabled them to grasp.I find it kind of ironic that many Christians today would even remotely consider this fair at all. Even more so, if we're teaching this then we are far more guilty of blocking the path to heaven than anything the Israelites of Christ's time are accused of doing within our Christian Scriptures. But many non-Christians do believe it -- because that's what's been told to them by other Christians. In fact, they believe it so much that they've concluded that God is nearly demonic because there is no possible way that someone could do this and reasonably call it fair in any sense of the word. Yes. It is free to all people.Would it seem appallingly awful to you if I told you that we Christians are in more grave danger of hell than unbelievers are -- because we shold know better?The Scriptures do proclaim that teachers will be judged more harshly in James if I recall. Many do want to follow his commandments.But, of course, why bother. Apparently all you have to do is be a Christian. Even if a Christian kills, rapes and pillages -- and then truly repents -- they still won't lose their salvation (according to your view).Meanwhile, here we have people who are honestly searching for the truth, even have the law inscribed on their hearts according to Paul, and yet they are still flungs into the depths of the fiery abyss FOREVER...That's not fair no matter how you dress it up. It's definitely not considered justice according to the Scriptures either.Observe... How much further do you want me to go with this? Exactly! And this is exactly what Paul is warning about: humility in realizing that we have not attained salvation on our own. Paul consitently warns about falling into the devil's snare in the same exact passages that you continually quote -- but you never seem to pay attention to these parts. God is the father of all people: Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Agnostic, Atheist, Polytheist, Hindu, Buddhist, Sihk -- regardless of whether we know it or not. God's name is hallowed.Yet often his name is blasphemed amongst the Gentiles because of our own failures -- not theirs.As it is written in Romans 2:24, "God's name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you." I've already started to dissect your assertions here.I'm still waiting for you to answer these questions by the way (they are all related to your assumptions about unmerrited grace and the idea that the Holy Spirit only moves Christians) : You said in another thread: Let's test this assumption a bit shall we?How about the titles "The Spirit of the Lord" or "God's Spirit" -- would you consider these titles references to the "Holy Spirit" back in the Hebrew Scriptures? I presume your hangover is gone now. So if someone is moved by the Holy Spirit then they are guaranteed salvation -- is this correct? Buh? This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 11-02-2005 03:53 AM

So what?It's still corruption iano -- no matter how you explain it.And that's exactly what the Scriptures say over and over again that God does NOT do -- he is NOT a respecter of persons, and he does NOT show favoritism.Can you show me in the Scriptures where it says that God works the way you say he does?For the record, before we get into the theological discussion, I would like to lay out our positions clearly:I'm saying that Paul is arguing that works cannot save us in order to warn other Christians about becoming too conceited.You say that Paul is arguing that works cannot save us in order to prove that only Christians can be saved.Have I summed up your position clearly here?

It's corrupt because, in order to be fair, on duty cop has to also pay the fine of the graphic artist as well. If the on duty cop pays the fine of the off-duty cop and then turns his nose to the plight of the graphic artist, then the on duty cop has shown favoritism even though both are equally guilty in the eyes of the law. No. It is the cops duty to enforce the law equally and without partiality to the social status, gender, or economic ability of those who break the law. It is called justice.The Scriptures, by the way, state over and over that God operates exactly the way I've noted: that he is a just God who does not show favoritism.Remember all those Scriptural passages that I quoted about God and justice, the ones you just ignored and swept under the proverbial rug in order to continue with your petition that God shows favoritism? Neither does the off duty cop -- except for the fact that the on duty cop has cut him a deal in order to escape punishment.So far we've been speaking in light terms of a fine for speeding, but this question gets much more serious when one considers situations where one is guitly of murder for example. If one person is pardoned because he knows the cop while the other person is executed because he has no ties to law enforcement, then we are talking about corruption in the most high places.It gets even worse when one talks about eternal damanation based on the exact reasons. Don't fool yourself iano. There's absolutely nothing fair about it.Period. This is a useless analogy though.Who cares whether one can play golf or not?We're talking about whether someone should be considered guilty or not -- and whether or not they should be punished for their crime.If you're reducing the eternal fate of each individual to being a question of whether they have membership in a gold club or not, then I think we're going in two very different directions here.

Exactly. And, I'll add, if the police force is paying the fines for their police officers that break the law in order to keep them out of jail, then it is most certainly considered corruption.I don't see how iano cannot see this.Iano, if you were in the position of the graphic designer in this hypothetical situation, you would most certainly bear a grievance against those who you felt were abusing the law to further their own ends.Again, I'm just speaking in light terms as far as punishment goes.If the police actually went so far as to "wipe the criminal's slate clean" by conceiling evidence, just as Christ apparently does only for Christians in your opinion when he treats us as if we didn't ever sin, then the police are most certainly guilty of corruption -- and can land themselves in jail if caught doing so by fair police officers. Amen crashfrog!Jusice does not end with the simple issuing of a speeding ticket. Maybe not always. There is one note that I will add.If the innocent man willingly takes the place of the murderer, then there is some distinction that should be made. However, even in this case, if the innocent man is unable to stand in the place of all murderers fairly, then, again, I will note that justice is still being perverted.But this is where the police anology breaks down within the theological ramifications of it all. There is no system around that I know of which would allow this to take place. I'm talking more spiritual issues here in terms of one's raw ability to forgive. Returning to the police analogy, I would add BINGO! Can I hear an amen? Exactly. There's nothing fair about it at all.

Just like you picking out verses form the Scriptures in order to justify that only Christians are going to heaven?By the way, I moved my response to here so I could keep this in the "appropriate thread" as you noted. People's actions, if they are considered good in God's eyes, are the result of the Holy Spirit. Within the focus of Pauline theodynamics, there's no debating this part iano. Our actions are made by the power of the Holy Spirit when we are aligned to God's will.Even the "actions" of the prophets of old were brought about by the motion of the Holy Spirit -- because they were inspired by the Holy Spirit when writing the Scriptures for example.Furthermore, 1 Corinthians 12:3 clearly states: Clearly one's "actions" in these Scriptural cases -- when postive --are produced by the motion or inspiration of the Holy Spirit.There's no arguing with this part iano.Now answer my questions:Can non-Christians be moved by the Holy Spirit or not?What happens to babies when they die -- do they go to hell because they didn't believe in Christ?Did Adam go to hell?This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 11-03-2005 02:15 AMThis message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 11-03-2005 02:16 AM