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Author Topic:   The Fires of Hell Have Gone Out: No Eternal Torment
joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 300 (255835)
10-31-2005 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by purpledawn
10-30-2005 6:43 PM


Re: the good times are killing me
quote:
A place where dead criminals were burned, destroyed. Not tormented.
The burning of the criminals was used to offer a glimpse of Hell.
quote:
So do you consider everyone to have eternal life?
Yes.
quote:
The verses concerning hell are not comparing anything to Gehenna.
The verse in greek of what you posted, was about hell, using Gehenna to illustrate it's fiery, tormenting, and destructive qualities.
I have to take a clear stance on this issue, I hate the idea of a hell, yet I don't want to abandon my principles, and my faith.

The ocean breathes salty, won't you carry it in?
In your head, in your mouth, in your soul.
And maybe we'll get lucky and we'll both grow old.
Well I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I hope so.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by purpledawn, posted 10-30-2005 6:43 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Phat, posted 10-31-2005 4:53 PM joshua221 has replied
 Message 19 by coffee_addict, posted 10-31-2005 5:14 PM joshua221 has replied
 Message 20 by purpledawn, posted 10-31-2005 6:38 PM joshua221 has not replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 17 of 300 (255836)
10-31-2005 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by joshua221
10-31-2005 4:51 PM


Re: the good times are killing me
nevermind...I gotta go to work..(will comment and edit this later)
This message has been edited by Phat, 10-31-2005 03:02 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by joshua221, posted 10-31-2005 4:51 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by joshua221, posted 10-31-2005 7:55 PM Phat has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 18 of 300 (255837)
10-31-2005 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by truthlover
10-31-2005 3:58 PM


Re: What about Luke?
quote:
It seems likely that at least some of Y'shua's listeners would have been familiar with the book, or at least its description of the after life, and would have seen it as not being purely allegorical.
They probably were, but it doesn't make this parable a teaching on the afterlife or any part of the parable true.
It is fiction and should be read as such.
The important part is the lesson intended. Nothing else.

Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission. -Eleanor Roosevelt-

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by truthlover, posted 10-31-2005 3:58 PM truthlover has not replied

coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 477 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 19 of 300 (255840)
10-31-2005 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by joshua221
10-31-2005 4:51 PM


Re: the good times are killing me
prophex writes:
I have to take a clear stance on this issue, I hate the idea of a hell, yet I don't want to abandon my principles, and my faith.
Permit me to rephrase what you said.
"Blah blah blah I can't hear you..."
How do you expect anyone to take you seriously if you continue to say something like this?
Actually, let me use the same principle. I think that you are a moron. It is my principle to think so. I hate the idea, but I don't want to abandon my principle. No amount of reason or evidence is going to convince me otherwise. I'm going to believe that you are a moron no matter what.
Catch my drift?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by joshua221, posted 10-31-2005 4:51 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by joshua221, posted 10-31-2005 7:38 PM coffee_addict has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 20 of 300 (255867)
10-31-2005 6:38 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by joshua221
10-31-2005 4:51 PM


Hades or Gehenna
quote:
The burning of the criminals was used to offer a glimpse of Hell.
The criminals were already dead. There is no torment to glimpse. Only destruction.
In Message 11 I show that Hell is not an accurate translation for Gehenna which is a proper noun. It is like substituting your name for mine.
quote:
I have to take a clear stance on this issue, I hate the idea of a hell, yet I don't want to abandon my principles, and my faith.
Which teachings do you feel support the idea of eternal torment by God?

Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission. -Eleanor Roosevelt-

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by joshua221, posted 10-31-2005 4:51 PM joshua221 has not replied

joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 300 (255886)
10-31-2005 7:38 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by coffee_addict
10-31-2005 5:14 PM


we'll float on, good news is on the way
The evidence lies within the text that has provided me with great knowledge of God. It's paints a picture of a Hell, a place of eternal torment, and a place where those who denied God, go. I love athiests, I think God loves athiests. Why would people be sent to a place so bad? It goes against all of the love taught in the Bible. Hell is a giant contradiction to the way I think about the Bible, God, Jesus. My principles as a God seeking individual are destroyed with such a belief. To soften the messages of the text, as scholars, and lately, purpledawn does with Jesus' parables, is wrong, and is the "easy was out". It's what happens when to apply reason to something that is so abstract, so hard to understand, and realize that the reason, and logic outweighs any belief in what can't be tested. I believe that my faith is stronger than any reason. And that's what frustrates you so much, you see me deny logic, for things that can't be observed, openly admitting to the evidence. In this case, the anti-heaven is a tragic ending to the love I know exists.
I know God doesn't actually like Hell.
Revelation 20:14 - And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
I also know some aren't saved by grace... Souls lost in a mist of sin and worldliness, why though? Why would God do that?
Matthew 10:28 - And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
I just found an amazing passage, that delves into the question, but realizes the unrighteous. The NIV is crazy. This is "revised standard".
1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their licentiousness, and because of them the way of truth will be reviled. 3 And in their greed they will exploit you with false words; from of old their condemnation has not been idle, and their destruction has not been asleep. 4 For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of nether gloom to be kept until the judgment; 5 if he did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven other persons, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6 if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomor'rah to ashes he condemned them to extinction and made them an example to those who were to be ungodly; 7 and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the licentiousness of the wicked 8 (for by what that righteous man saw and heard as he lived among them, he was vexed in his righteous soul day after day with their lawless deeds), 9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trial, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment, 10 and especially those who indulge in the lust of defiling passion and despise authority. Bold and wilful, they are not afraid to revile the glorious ones, 11 whereas angels, though greater in might and power, do not pronounce a reviling judgment upon them before the Lord. 12 But these, like irrational animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and killed, reviling in matters of which they are ignorant, will be destroyed in the same destruction with them, 13 suffering wrong for their wrongdoing. They count it pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their dissipation, carousing with you. 14 They have eyes full of adultery, insatiable for sin. They entice unsteady souls. They have hearts trained in greed. Accursed children! 15 Forsaking the right way they have gone astray; they have followed the way of Balaam, the son of Be'or, who loved gain from wrongdoing, 16 but was rebuked for his own transgression; a dumb ass spoke with human voice and restrained the prophet's madness. 17 These are waterless springs and mists driven by a storm; for them the nether gloom of darkness has been reserved. 18 For, uttering loud boasts of folly, they entice with licentious passions of the flesh men who have barely escaped from those who live in error. 19 They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption; for whatever overcomes a man, to that he is enslaved. 20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb, The dog turns back to his own vomit, and the sow is washed only to wallow in the mire.
I guess it's all about the judgement of God. And in mine questioning, I realized it is not for me to worry. We'll float on ok.
This message has been edited by prophex, 10-31-2005 07:38 PM

The ocean breathes salty, won't you carry it in?
In your head, in your mouth, in your soul.
And maybe we'll get lucky and we'll both grow old.
Well I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I hope so.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by coffee_addict, posted 10-31-2005 5:14 PM coffee_addict has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by coffee_addict, posted 10-31-2005 7:50 PM joshua221 has replied
 Message 32 by purpledawn, posted 10-31-2005 9:02 PM joshua221 has replied

joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 300 (255888)
10-31-2005 7:40 PM


I want, I want.
I want all the people for righteousness. Is it to noble a desire?

The ocean breathes salty, won't you carry it in?
In your head, in your mouth, in your soul.
And maybe we'll get lucky and we'll both grow old.
Well I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I hope so.

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by nwr, posted 10-31-2005 7:47 PM joshua221 has replied
 Message 26 by coffee_addict, posted 10-31-2005 7:53 PM joshua221 has not replied

nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 23 of 300 (255890)
10-31-2005 7:47 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by joshua221
10-31-2005 7:40 PM


Re: I want, I want.
I want all the people for righteousness. Is it to noble a desire?
Whose notion of "righteousness"? Will it be that of prophex? Or George Bush (dubya)? Or jar? Or iano? Or schraffinator? Or mike_the_wiz?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by joshua221, posted 10-31-2005 7:40 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by joshua221, posted 10-31-2005 7:53 PM nwr has replied
 Message 44 by iano, posted 11-01-2005 12:44 PM nwr has replied

coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 477 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 24 of 300 (255891)
10-31-2005 7:50 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by joshua221
10-31-2005 7:38 PM


Re: we'll float on, good news is on the way
You misunderstood me. It's not the validity of your claim that I question. I question your willingness to debate in good faith.
Every once in a while, you insert a comment like the one I quoted in my last post. The comment essentially says "you are wasting your time with me because I ain't going to listen to what you have to say... blah blah blah I can't hear you."
If you want people like me to stop treating you like an angry teenager and start taking your words more seriously, you need to demonstrate that you have the ability to absorb the words and evidence that people present. Stop saying "I ain't going to change my mind regardless blah blah blah I can't hear you blah blah blah..."
As a friend (it's against my better judgement), I'll be honest to you right now. It's better for your professional life to at least pretend that you are considering what other people are saying, especially your boss. I don't care if you're not going to change your mind, but at least don't say it out loud. People actually spend the time to look up information and write out long posts to converse with you and you throw the information right back into their faces by saying "blah blah blah I can't hear you." No matter how many ways you can put it, it's still "blah blah blah I can't hear you."
Ok, I'll stop interrupting.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by joshua221, posted 10-31-2005 7:38 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by joshua221, posted 10-31-2005 7:54 PM coffee_addict has not replied

joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 300 (255894)
10-31-2005 7:53 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by nwr
10-31-2005 7:47 PM


Re: I want, I want.
GOD'S

The ocean breathes salty, won't you carry it in?
In your head, in your mouth, in your soul.
And maybe we'll get lucky and we'll both grow old.
Well I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I hope so.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by nwr, posted 10-31-2005 7:47 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by coffee_addict, posted 10-31-2005 7:53 PM joshua221 has not replied
 Message 30 by coffee_addict, posted 10-31-2005 8:02 PM joshua221 has not replied
 Message 31 by nwr, posted 10-31-2005 8:12 PM joshua221 has replied

coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 477 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 26 of 300 (255895)
10-31-2005 7:53 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by joshua221
10-31-2005 7:40 PM


Re: I want, I want.
prophex writes:
I want all the people for righteousness. Is it to noble a desire?
My idea of righteousness is I don't require that my opinion be made into law. Heck, the head of the US military disagrees with me on this regard. Right away, we can see 2 distinct opinions on what is righteousness. Which one is the right righteousness?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by joshua221, posted 10-31-2005 7:40 PM joshua221 has not replied

coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 477 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 27 of 300 (255896)
10-31-2005 7:53 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by joshua221
10-31-2005 7:53 PM


Re: I want, I want.
Are you god?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by joshua221, posted 10-31-2005 7:53 PM joshua221 has not replied

joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 300 (255897)
10-31-2005 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by coffee_addict
10-31-2005 7:50 PM


Re: we'll float on, good news is on the way
Every once in a while, you insert a comment like the one I quoted in my last post. The comment essentially says "you are wasting your time with me because I ain't going to listen to what you have to say... blah blah blah I can't hear you."
not really.

The ocean breathes salty, won't you carry it in?
In your head, in your mouth, in your soul.
And maybe we'll get lucky and we'll both grow old.
Well I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I hope so.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by coffee_addict, posted 10-31-2005 7:50 PM coffee_addict has not replied

joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 300 (255898)
10-31-2005 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Phat
10-31-2005 4:53 PM


Re: the good times are killing me
Cool man.

The ocean breathes salty, won't you carry it in?
In your head, in your mouth, in your soul.
And maybe we'll get lucky and we'll both grow old.
Well I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I hope so.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Phat, posted 10-31-2005 4:53 PM Phat has not replied

coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 477 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 30 of 300 (255901)
10-31-2005 8:02 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by joshua221
10-31-2005 7:53 PM


Re: I want, I want.
http://www.jhuger.com/tract/dtr/
I love that particular tract because it says something that christians often try to avoid. I especially love this part of it

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by joshua221, posted 10-31-2005 7:53 PM joshua221 has not replied

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