Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
6 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   I'm trying: a stairway to heaven?
Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1337 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 46 of 303 (255720)
10-30-2005 10:48 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Legend
10-30-2005 2:53 PM


Re: Jesus gave directions
Iano, I think Legend makes a good point here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Legend, posted 10-30-2005 2:53 PM Legend has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by iano, posted 10-31-2005 6:15 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 47 of 303 (255829)
10-31-2005 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Chiroptera
10-29-2005 6:31 PM


Chiro writes:
Actually, an omnipotent god can do anything he wants, which is why I find it amusing when evangelicals try to tell us what god is going or not going to do.
I wonder could an omnipotent God decide to cease to exist in any way, shape or form, and then (when he doesn't exist)come into existance again. The question would arise: how could anything that didn't exist at all, haul itself into existance?
If he couldn't do this then onmipotence (a word that can only mean something to man with the various limitations man has) doesn't mean doing anything at all. Ex nihilo, nihilo fit after all...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Chiroptera, posted 10-29-2005 6:31 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Chiroptera, posted 10-31-2005 5:22 PM iano has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 48 of 303 (255830)
10-31-2005 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by purpledawn
10-30-2005 7:24 AM


Re: Sheol/Hell
Purpledawn writes:
I think I'm going to start a thread about Hell not being a place of eternal torment.
God bless...you'll need it

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by purpledawn, posted 10-30-2005 7:24 AM purpledawn has not replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 49 of 303 (255838)
10-31-2005 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Legend
10-30-2005 2:53 PM


Re: Jesus gave directions
My understanding of a non-sequitur is a conclusion that doesn't follow from the premise
Your inference : Jesus gave the man directions that didn't lead to where the man wanted to go. My conclusion : Jesus lied to the man.
Jesus' instructions do lead exactly where the man wants to go. "Follow all the law to the letter or if your can't get your head around it all I'll summarize for you: love God/love your neighbour"
The maintenance manual for my Yamaha Fazer 1000 explains how one should go about servicing this motorcycle. That the person reading it has not the ability to carry out the task described therein is not a problem for the manual. The manual isn't lying. It is answering the question: how do I adjust the valve clearances on a fazer 1000. It can only describe the procedure in the way it must be done. If the person cannot carry out the task that is their problem. "You asked how do I adjust valve clearances - well, I'm telling you how"
AbE: And for anyone who reads the manual and weeps, Jesus says "I am the way and the truth and the life - no-one comes to the Father (or adjusts Fazer 1000 valve clearances) except through me"
AbE: this thread offers those who reckon they can "try climb the stairway to heaven" the opportunity to make that case biblically. Try in connection with salvation doesn't appear in the bible - I wonder why....
This message has been edited by iano, 31-Oct-2005 10:14 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Legend, posted 10-30-2005 2:53 PM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by ringo, posted 10-31-2005 5:42 PM iano has replied
 Message 61 by Legend, posted 10-31-2005 6:27 PM iano has replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 50 of 303 (255842)
10-31-2005 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by iano
10-31-2005 4:33 PM


Hello, iano.
I suppose that an omnipotent God could will himself out of existence for a pre=specified time. Kind of odd to think about, eh?
I think that some people, especially anti-theists, get too hung up on the meaning of omnipotence. I think it's acceptable to think of omnipotence as being able to do anything that is logically possible. Or does that make God subservient to the laws of logic? Hmm. On the other hand, if God is thought to be able to transcend logic, then I suppose that God could create a stone so large that he can't lift it. And still be able to lift it. Heh.
Oops. I just realized that this is getting way off-topic. Unless the concept of omnipotence is relevant, and it may be useful to point out the subtle difficulties in the concept.

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by iano, posted 10-31-2005 4:33 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by iano, posted 10-31-2005 5:37 PM Chiroptera has replied
 Message 56 by macaroniandcheese, posted 10-31-2005 6:00 PM Chiroptera has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 51 of 303 (255843)
10-31-2005 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Legend
10-30-2005 2:53 PM


Re: Jesus gave directions
Legend writes:
Let me ask you again: Someone wants to get to London and he asks me for directions. If I tell him "get on the M4, etc" knowing full well that the M4 is closed, then haven't I just mislead the man ?
Maybe I should quit using analogies - because they lead to expansion the analogy didn't intend. In this case you decide the M4 is closed - but the M4 isn't closed. All the driver has to do is follow the instructions as given: follow the directions to the letter and you will get there. The onus is on the driver to follow them - not the giver of the deadly accurate instructions.
And all of us here gathered know that we cannot follow them. But the problem is our not following the instructions - not the instructions themselves.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Legend, posted 10-30-2005 2:53 PM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Legend, posted 10-31-2005 6:50 PM iano has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 52 of 303 (255846)
10-31-2005 5:37 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Chiroptera
10-31-2005 5:22 PM


I was talking to my mother this evening. She is a Christian and was the one "that led me to the Lord" We're having a bit of difficulty at the moment about healing and deliverance from curses and the like. For example: my mother looks at "by his stripes we are healed" as a 'backup' for her contention that we can claim healing and that God wants us to do this. I look at the whole passage, 1 Peter 2, at the end of which this verse.. and can see no reference in it to physical healing. So I must reject, with regret - she is my wonderful mother afterall - her theology
There are many things about "how Goddidit" which we just don't know. Some will latch on to this "Aha - Gotcha" But it can't helped. Some things ARE mysterious and beyond us. Omnipotence is one. God is good and "in him there is no darkness at all" It seems darkness, evil etc cannot be in God. Is this because he is subservient to something else or is it that it is logically inconsistant with who he is. I take the latter view.
And it is off topic "I'm trying a stairway to heaven" is the one.
Tell me this CP: What would you make of a God whereby your salvation had absolutely nothing to do with your behaviour but on your hearts reaction to your behaviour. I mean: you act 'bad' but somewhere inside you know it's bad and even though you can't seem to help acting bad and it is this not wanting to act bad even though I can't help acting bad is the thing that matters?
Would you think him a mightier or lesser God for this..?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Chiroptera, posted 10-31-2005 5:22 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Chiroptera, posted 10-31-2005 7:27 PM iano has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 53 of 303 (255848)
10-31-2005 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by iano
10-31-2005 5:06 PM


Re: Jesus gave directions
iano writes:
... this thread offers those who reckon they can "try climb the stairway to heaven" the opportunity to make that case biblically.
The trouble is, you haven't given a shred of evidence that trying is not sufficient.
quote:
Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
It seems that Jesus' standard of "perfection" was not that hard to follow after all.
quote:
Luk 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abijah: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
Luk 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
Even before Jesus was born, Zacharias and Elizabeth kept all of the commandmnents and were blameless.
So how about giving us some scripture to back up your viewpoint? Everything we've seen so far seems to contradict you.

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by iano, posted 10-31-2005 5:06 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by iano, posted 10-31-2005 6:02 PM ringo has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 54 of 303 (255849)
10-31-2005 5:45 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Legend
10-30-2005 5:05 PM


Re: Love with all your heart
Legend writes:
You're the one who's claiming that this implies total and unfaltering success.
Nope. I'm the one asking for a biblical backup to the "eminently logical" case your making. At the moment I have 'commands'. We know we don't love our neighbour as ourselves. Most would have a problem with figuring out how to "love God with all our heart soul and minds" when they don't even know God in the first place.
There appears to some difficulty and papering over the cracks as you do. "What appears rational and sensible to me" is not exactly what the OP requested.
It was a biblical case - not a logical one
This message has been edited by iano, 31-Oct-2005 10:46 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Legend, posted 10-30-2005 5:05 PM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Legend, posted 11-01-2005 8:13 AM iano has replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 55 of 303 (255852)
10-31-2005 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Brian
10-29-2005 12:28 PM


Re: So Heaven is not about trying?
why not? god forgives whom he desires.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Brian, posted 10-29-2005 12:28 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by Brian, posted 11-01-2005 7:40 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 56 of 303 (255853)
10-31-2005 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Chiroptera
10-31-2005 5:22 PM


i have simply decided that the god of the jews was not omnipotent. it makes much more sense.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Chiroptera, posted 10-31-2005 5:22 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Chiroptera, posted 10-31-2005 7:29 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 57 of 303 (255854)
10-31-2005 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by ringo
10-31-2005 5:42 PM


Re: Jesus gave directions
Ringo writes:
The trouble is, you haven't given a shred of evidence that trying is not sufficient.
Which is why I got in with the question first. The onus (according to the OP) is on you - not me. Now if you posted "salvation by Faith and not by our striving?" you would be on a possible winner
But not here
Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
If only you had included the rich mans response in your rather truncated quote
It seems that Jesus' standard of "perfection" was not that hard to follow after all.
Like I said...context uber alles....
Luk 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abijah: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
Luk 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
Even before Jesus was born, Zacharias and Elizabeth kept all of the commandmnents and were blameless - living blamelessly accordingto all the commandments and regulations of the Lord
Two options here: the were righteous because they lived according... or [b] lived this way because they were righteous.
One cannot tell from this text which it was....Chicken and egg scenario
This message has been edited by iano, 31-Oct-2005 11:05 PM
This message has been edited by iano, 31-Oct-2005 11:09 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by ringo, posted 10-31-2005 5:42 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by ringo, posted 10-31-2005 6:18 PM iano has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 58 of 303 (255857)
10-31-2005 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
10-30-2005 10:48 PM


Jesus gave directions
See response to Legend. Legend closes the M4 for some (biblically) unknown reason. He makes the problems be with instructions not the driver.
Anyway mrx. A biblical case for trying?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-30-2005 10:48 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 11-01-2005 2:38 AM iano has replied
 Message 85 by Legend, posted 11-01-2005 8:37 AM iano has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 59 of 303 (255859)
10-31-2005 6:18 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by iano
10-31-2005 6:02 PM


Re: Jesus gave directions
The onus (according to the OP) is on you - not me.
Hardly. My purpose here is to show that your outlook on salvation is nonsensical and unscriptural. So far - judging by the responses of everybody else - mission accomplished.
If only you had included the rich mans response in your rather truncated quote
Remember your analogy about giving directions to London? By your own standard, it doesn't matter whether the person follows the directions or not - merely that the directions were given.
Jesus gave the rich man directions. The rich man chose not to follow them, just as the soldiers in your other analogy chose to disobey orders.
Those who do follow Jesus' instructions will still get the reward in Heaven that He promised.
Two options here: the were righteous because they lived according... or lived this way because they were righteous.
One cannot tell from this text which it was....Chicken and egg scenario
And it doesn't matter one bit which it was. The point here is that they were blameless - which you say is impossible. You contradict the Bible.

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by iano, posted 10-31-2005 6:02 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by iano, posted 10-31-2005 6:26 PM ringo has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 60 of 303 (255862)
10-31-2005 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by ringo
10-31-2005 6:18 PM


Re: Jesus gave directions
Ringo writes:
Hardly. My purpose here is to show that your outlook on salvation is nonsensical and unscriptural. So far - judging by the responses of everybody else - mission accomplished.
Off-topic away. It's not that I can hold my hand up to being an on-topic junkie. When/if you get on-topic I'll be all ears
This message has been edited by iano, 31-Oct-2005 11:27 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by ringo, posted 10-31-2005 6:18 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by ringo, posted 10-31-2005 6:38 PM iano has replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024