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Author Topic:   evolutionary chain
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1488 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 13 of 204 (255409)
10-28-2005 8:36 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Christian
10-27-2005 5:50 PM


For example, fish to amphibian or reptile to bird. I would like a list stating who evolved from whom with descriptions of each animal.
There's not really such a taxon as "reptile", you should know. What you think of as "reptiles" is actually three different groups of living and extinct organisms, one of which includes dinosaurs, modern birds, and snakes, lizards, and other scaly ectotherms; one that includes mammals and some extinct fin-backed creatures; and one that's basically turtles. (Animal Diversity, 2nd Ed, Hickman, Roberts, and Larson, 2000.)
Evolution gives rise to trees, not chains. Thinking of organisms in terms of chains of development is of fairly limited use. You wouldn't bother to think of your own ancestry in terms of a "family chain" leading from some arbitrary great-great-grandparent down to you; it's much more useful to consider your family as a tree, because it connects you to your cousins and uncles, as well as your direct ancestors.

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 Message 1 by Christian, posted 10-27-2005 5:50 PM Christian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Christian, posted 10-31-2005 6:19 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 18 by Christian, posted 10-31-2005 6:42 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1488 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 20 of 204 (255872)
10-31-2005 6:44 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Christian
10-31-2005 6:19 PM


It's very useful to show evidence of decendence.
But that's not how descendance works. Families expand, not descend. Just like evolution, pretty much.
For example, in biblical geneologies, they start with one guy, We'll call him "A" for the purpose of illustration. Then they say "A" begot "B" and "B" begot "C" and "C" begot "D", etc. This shows that "D" is truly a decendant of "A".
1) The Bible geneologies are fictitious.
2) The Bible geneologies are strictly paternal and primogenitural; they're not true geneologies because they leave out almost all of the family.
But it would be very useful to try to piece together actual chains.
Why? What use would you get that you wouldn't get from the whole picture? Why hobble yourself?
In any case, if we do have trees, shouldn't you be able to find chains on the trees?
Only by working backwards. If you want to work forwards, you need to be thinking in trees.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Christian, posted 10-31-2005 6:19 PM Christian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Christian, posted 11-03-2005 6:37 PM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1488 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 40 of 204 (257059)
11-05-2005 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Christian
11-03-2005 6:37 PM


Yes, that leaves out a lot of family members, but it shows who his direct ancestors were.
No, it doesn't. If you go back in a chain, you don't see all his direct ancestors. Everybody has two parents, not just one; both of those parents are his direct ancestors; all four of his great-grandparents are his direct ancestors; all eight of his great-great-grandparents are his direct ancestors, etc. See the pattern? It's a tree, not a chain.
Highly unlikely since the people back then knew who their relatives were and if the geneologies were fictitious, people would've had something to say about it.
Excuse me? The geneologies in the Bible weren't written down until centuries after the events they detail. There would have been nobody at the time of writing who would have been able to verify or corroborate or challenge the geneologies.
They're fictional.
Simplifying the geneologies is useful to show more clearly who the ancestors were.
But you don't see all the ancestors. That's the point. There's hundreds of individuals who would be direct ancestors who are left out of those geneologies.
With a simple chain I could look at each species and determine if I agree that it is plausible that this species evolved from the previous one.
That's not even how species evolve, though. You're asking to see something that isn't possible, based on the reality of heredity and speciation.
Well, It's lovely to look forward and imagine the tree of ancestors I will have, but it does very little to prove or disprove evolution. So lets work backwards.
You've misunderstood me. Not forwards from you to your decendants; forwards from your ancestors to you.

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 Message 23 by Christian, posted 11-03-2005 6:37 PM Christian has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by AdminNosy, posted 11-05-2005 7:06 PM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1488 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 44 of 204 (257165)
11-05-2005 8:22 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by AdminNosy
11-05-2005 7:06 PM


Re: Topic
Crash, you were warned about the topic a day ago.
What are you talking about? The topic is "evolutionary chains", which is the title of the thread, and that's the subject of my post. I guess I don't understand how you think I'm off-topic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by AdminNosy, posted 11-05-2005 7:06 PM AdminNosy has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Yaro, posted 11-05-2005 8:28 PM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1488 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 46 of 204 (257167)
11-05-2005 8:34 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Yaro
11-05-2005 8:28 PM


Re: Topic
Hey crash, I think hes refering to the bit about geneologies in the bible.
They're just an illustrative example about how decendance does, or doesn't, work.
What, we can't use analogies now?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Yaro, posted 11-05-2005 8:28 PM Yaro has not replied

  
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