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Author Topic:   Pat Robertson on natural disasters
jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 174 of 302 (254227)
10-23-2005 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by bkelly
10-23-2005 3:04 PM


Re: Xians?
an abbreviation of Christians using the X as a symbol for Christ.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by bkelly, posted 10-23-2005 3:04 PM bkelly has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 208 of 302 (255112)
10-27-2005 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by Buzsaw
10-27-2005 12:03 PM


Re: Focus on Topic
Pat Robertson's position on Natural Disasters is a clear example of Blasphemy.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by Buzsaw, posted 10-27-2005 12:03 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by Buzsaw, posted 10-27-2005 8:13 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 214 of 302 (255218)
10-27-2005 8:15 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by Buzsaw
10-27-2005 8:13 PM


Re: Focus on Topic
Attributing Natural Disasters to GOD is blasphemous.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by Buzsaw, posted 10-27-2005 8:13 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by Buzsaw, posted 10-27-2005 8:46 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 216 of 302 (255225)
10-27-2005 8:50 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by Buzsaw
10-27-2005 8:46 PM


Re: Bashing Robertson
Washington: The high-profile American preacher Pat Robertson says recent natural disasters around the globe point to the end of the world and the imminent return of Jesus Christ.
Natural disasters are just that. Natural. They have nothing to do with GOD. They are NOT on a rise. They presage NOTHING.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by Buzsaw, posted 10-27-2005 8:46 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by Buzsaw, posted 10-27-2005 10:52 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 218 of 302 (255239)
10-27-2005 11:06 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by Buzsaw
10-27-2005 10:52 PM


Re: Bashing Robertson
We all know that there has been a spike in the graph of disastrous events of this nature since about the time the Israel/Jerusalem prophecies were fulfilled in the last half century.
There is no indication that there has been an increase in natural disasters. Secondly, there is no evidence of any Biblical prophecies being fulfilled. Ever.
That is yet another nonsense assertion with no evidential support.
I realize that many people believe such nonsense, many believe in numerology or astrology but it is simply a perversion of Christianity. To say that there is some attribution, to say that natural disasters are related to the second coming, related to punishment on sinful man, to claim that there is a rise in frequency of natural disaster as a prelude for the Second Coming, is IMHO, no more than Blasphemy and perversion.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by Buzsaw, posted 10-27-2005 10:52 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by Buzsaw, posted 10-28-2005 9:33 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 225 of 302 (255425)
10-28-2005 9:58 PM
Reply to: Message 223 by Buzsaw
10-28-2005 9:33 PM


Re: Bashing Robertson
To say there's no evidence at all shows clearly your ignorance of the subect you're debating here.
Start a thread on it and let's see if this time you can come up with even ONE prophecy that's ever been fulfilled. It might be interesting.
And as to your other stuff, not much there. Dollar losses are higher because more people live in exposed areas, not because there are more frequent or larger natural disasters. And believe me, compared to many in the past, the current crop since the (LOL) Millenium are pussycats. Compared to the eruptions over time, Krakatau, Yellowstone, Toba or impacts like the one 65 million years ago just a ways east of me, current natural disasters don't even make the playoffs.
I know that there are people that believe in prophecy just like those that believe in astrology, taro cards and ouija boards. And they are all equally valid.
This message has been edited by jar, 10-28-2005 08:59 PM

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by Buzsaw, posted 10-28-2005 9:33 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 227 by Buzsaw, posted 10-30-2005 12:35 AM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 229 of 302 (255609)
10-30-2005 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 227 by Buzsaw
10-30-2005 12:35 AM


Re: Bashing Robertson
Are you even yet ready to admit that natural disasters have been on the increase in recent decades since the rebirth of the nation of Israel and the reocupation of Jews to the city of Jerusalem?
No, of course not. That is simply one of those nonsense statements that is the hallmark of the Fundamentalist and Evangelical. Not only is there no evidence that that is true, the evidence from ice cores, as just one example, seems to show that the last 10,000 years have been a period of remarkable consistency with nowhere near the violent natural disaster that is the norm.
Pat Robertson, whom you despise and judge as blasphemous, appears to be smarter than you in this regard.
I think despise is way to harsh a term. I fear him as I fear any demagogue. Like Haggard and Hinn and Falwell and Roberts and Swaggart and Dobson, Robertson lies with facility.
You remind me of the NT Pharasees who observed the miracles of Jesus and the apostles, being also shown by the OT prophecies that Jesus was the christ/messiah, setting about immediately to persecute or kill the ones performing them because they were so set in their ways and beliefs. It was these folks who had Jesus eventually crucified by the government.
There is one difference you fail to mention. I happen to believe in Jesus and his message, unlike the Fundies and Evagelicals that actually are trying to crucify both the truth and other individuals.
I do not judge Robertson, only his message. And his message, like the message of all Evangelicals and Fundies is one of hate, ignorance and intolerance.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by Buzsaw, posted 10-30-2005 12:35 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by Buzsaw, posted 10-30-2005 12:41 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 231 of 302 (255642)
10-30-2005 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 230 by Buzsaw
10-30-2005 12:41 PM


Re: Bashing Robertson
Then why do you deny so much of what he said, like the miracles which he performed, et al? Another one of your strawmen.
Please point out where I said that or admit that you are only misquoting and misrepresenting your opponents position yet again.
Now jar, this is a blatant strawman. Please reread my statement which you purport to have responded to. I clearly stated that this is about the last few decades since the rebirth of Israel - not 10,000 years.
What a truly stupid statement. Are you seriously implying that we should only look at the period since the establishment of Isreal and ignore all that came before? No wonder you can find prophecy in the Bible. You select only the facts that fit your preconceived notions.
Talk about willful ignorance...
Even in your simplistic imaginary Universe, your assertions don't hold up. So far you have shown no evidence that natural disasters are on the rise in either number or magnitude. Sure costs are up, more people live in exposed areas.
AbE: (that means added by edit)
Wander into chat sometime when I'm there and we can continue the discussion without filling threads if you are concerned with bandwidth.
This message has been edited by jar, 10-30-2005 11:58 AM

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by Buzsaw, posted 10-30-2005 12:41 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 232 by Buzsaw, posted 10-30-2005 4:04 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 235 of 302 (255669)
10-30-2005 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 232 by Buzsaw
10-30-2005 4:04 PM


Re: Bashing Robertson
Why do you get by with this nonsense when if I, Faith, Mike the Whiz or some other Biblical creo engaged in such conduct, we'd be suspended or even banned.
Classic response of the Evangelical or Fundamentalist Jihadist. No different than the Taliban or Al Queda. You want to oppress and destroy all who speak out against your ignorant and intemperate statements.
I know, you know and anyone else who's been around for long knows that you have denied all the miracles of the Bible except the virgin birth and the resurrection of Jesus -- and on one occasion you expressed doubt about one of those.
Buz old Grande Inquisitor, if that is TRUE, you should have no trouble finding examples of such statements from me. I will, however, expect you to quote them in context and not just quotemine or misquote as seems to be the common tactic of Fundies and Evangelicals. However, as has always been the case in the past, I suspect Hell will freeze over before we get any evidence.
The topic and all we're suppose to be addressing in this thread topic is whether the rise in number of natural disasters and loss of life and property the planet is experiencing is indicative of the fulfillment of Biblical prophecy as per Pat Robertson.
But here are a few quotes:
buzsaw writes:
ICR (Institute for Creation Research) says there has not been an increased incidence of earthquakes from 1900 to 2000, and I have to agree.
So, on No Less an Authority as Buzsaw, I would have to say your theory has been shot down in flames once again(and again and again and again).
And once again you bring up Biblical Prophecy. Sorry Charlie, until you can show us at least one such prophecy, there is nothing to discuss. All you have are empty assertions once again.
Now questions. Why is it Fundies and Evangelical Fanatics always feel they need to belittle the messenger and ignore the message? Are you folk really that insecure?
buzsaw writes:
Jar, me old adversarical friend, is it that you've been drinking heavily, or are you really that out of it these days?
You say:
What we are not suppose to be addressing is the geological and weather the planet has been experiencing for 10,000 years.
Not 10,000 years buz. For 4.6 Billion years. The last 10,000 years have been relatively mild and sedate compared to the norm. Don't you want to include ALL the data, or do you want to acknowledge only that small segment which you wish supported your assertions. According to no less an authority (see above) then Buz, that's not the case.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by Buzsaw, posted 10-30-2005 4:04 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by Buzsaw, posted 10-31-2005 12:53 AM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 250 of 302 (255763)
10-31-2005 7:37 AM
Reply to: Message 247 by Buzsaw
10-31-2005 12:53 AM


Buz, I know you don't read what others write..
but do you even read what you write?
buzsaw from his response to Trixie writes:
Your point is well taken, Trixie, but Asgara's variables were based on only one aspect of the total disaster types which was hurricanes.
So you agree that Hurricane statistics don't support your assertion.
buzsaw in his reply to me writes:
As I've shown in one of the links, the earthquake stats don't cut the musterd for your argument.
buz writes:
You can talk to yourself all by yourself till the cows come home in your own little corner here jar about the thousands and billions of years,
So let me get this straight. The hurricane statistics don't support your wild assertions, the earthquake statistics don't support your wild assertions, you want to limit things to YOUR timeline. Do you have anything to backup your statements or is this yet another hide the goalposts and declare Buz the winner. LOL
Then you fall back into the classic posture of the Fundie/Evangelist when the facts go against them. You start whining and crying and demanding that those who expose the foolishness of your message be silenced.
buzsaw writes:
You should be ashamed, moderating others and suspending some for conduct no worse than this.
That is the danger of blasphemous Fundies and Evangelicals like Pat Robertson. They are intolerant, they wish to impose their warped woldview on all others, and to silence any voice of reason that speaks out against oppression.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by Buzsaw, posted 10-31-2005 12:53 AM Buzsaw has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 251 of 302 (255774)
10-31-2005 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 239 by Buzsaw
10-30-2005 9:30 PM


Why Faith left?
.......And you people wonder why Faith became so indignant, why she's gone and why few Biblicalists ever care to hang in here and put up with this stuff!
No, we don't wonder why Faith left, and that is central to the purpose of this thread.
Faith left because she was shown time after time, thread after thread, message after message, to be wrong. Hopefully she is using this time to rethink her positions and to reassess her conclusions and faith.
Pat Robertson is only symptomatic of a great evil sweeping the US. He is but one, the list goes on and on, Falwell, Swaggart, Dobson, Haggard, Roberts, Scott, Hinn, Phelps. For too long they have been allowed to spew their messages of hate and intolerance. Now, voices are being raised, speaking out against their message; Christian voices as well as those from other faiths and no faith at all. We are demanding that people like Pat Robertson support their assertions, provide fact and not just intolerance.
And that's why folk like Faith run. When faced with absolute proof that their statements are nonsense, that they are being willfully ignorant, they run.
Truth will win out over ignorance and intolerance.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by Buzsaw, posted 10-30-2005 9:30 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by Silent H, posted 10-31-2005 10:52 AM jar has replied
 Message 257 by Buzsaw, posted 10-31-2005 11:40 PM jar has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 254 of 302 (255873)
10-31-2005 6:46 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by Silent H
10-31-2005 10:52 AM


Re: Why Faith left?
How can you say this given history?
I can only hope.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by Silent H, posted 10-31-2005 10:52 AM Silent H has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 267 of 302 (256097)
11-01-2005 8:29 PM
Reply to: Message 262 by Buzsaw
11-01-2005 4:42 PM


Re: Bashing Robertson
buz writes:
2. Prophecy of high tech where all nations of the world will be able to view an event in one spot on the planet. Revelation 11:9, Revelation 17:18:9.
Well, Revelation 11:9 certainly doesn’t refer to high tech where all nations of the world will be able to view an event in one spot on the planet. It doesn’t have anything to do with that.
Rev 11
9: And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
In fact, if you read all of Revelations 11 you find that it’s talking about event in one small town or region.
8: And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9: And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
It’s yet another of those verses that seem to show that John was speaking about very local, very contemporary events and not prophecy at all.
buz writes:
3. Prophecy of a time when a significantly prominent city of the world will be able to be destroyed in one hour, implying nuclear energy tech. Revelation 18:10
Again, that’s simply a nonsense, laughable, attempt to twist and pervert what is actually written. There is no implication of nuclear tech or anything else. Nor does it refer to any given city, the field is wide open and should any city get destroyed, it could be used as proof of prophecy. Come on Buz, anything that general is not prophecy, it’s damn near guaranteed.
Let’s look at this laughable example of what buz calls prophecy .
10: Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
If someone were to actually read ALL of Revelations 18 they would get a totally different impression.
1: And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.
2: And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
3: For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
4: And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
5: For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
6: Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.
7: How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
8: Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
9: And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
10: Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
11: And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:
12: The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,
13: And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.
14: And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all.
15: The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,
16: And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!
17: For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,
18: And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!
19: And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.
20: Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.
21: And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
22: And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;
23: And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
24: And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
Note that long after Babylon was destroyed way back in verse 10, it’s being symbolized by the angel throwing a millstone into the sea to destroy it, not some nuclear holocaust. It’s symbols, not prophecy, but a political tract addressing Rome. Rome 1500 years ago. Not something in the future for those of us alive today, but rather in our ancient history.
Buz, if you would like I’ll be happy to step through each one of your alleged prophecies but as you certainly know, not one of them will stand up to examination.
So what it looks like is that you cannot show any increase in Natural Disaster and now you can't even find any prophecies to go along.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by Buzsaw, posted 11-01-2005 4:42 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 271 by Buzsaw, posted 11-02-2005 1:14 AM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 285 of 302 (256216)
11-02-2005 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 271 by Buzsaw
11-02-2005 1:14 AM


Re: Bashing Robertson
I'm not wasting any more of my busy life on stuff you distort so badly.
How can I possibly be the one doing the distorting when I place your quotemining in context. Are you saying that by showing folk how the meaning YOU assign to one or two lines is not there when read in full context is distorting the facts?
Are you saying you do NOT want to discuss what is actually written in the Bible, but only want us to accept what you assert is the meaning?
Jar, all Icare to say to you is read the specific texts I cited thoughtfully, prayerfully and carefully.
Unlike most Fundies and Evangelicals, buz, not only have I read the specific texts you cited, I've read the lines before and after them.
Can we not look at what is actually written in the Bible, in context, as it was meant to be read?
All I can say is I hope someday that you carefully and prayerfully read the Bible.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by Buzsaw, posted 11-02-2005 1:14 AM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 287 by PaulK, posted 11-02-2005 11:07 AM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 288 of 302 (256225)
11-02-2005 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 287 by PaulK
11-02-2005 11:07 AM


To the heart of the matter
I think that Buz's idea of carefully reading the Bible is carefully NOT reading any bit of it that might say something that Buz doesn't like.
Amen Brother, Testify!
This is the heart of the issue with Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, Dobson, Phelps, and so many of the televagelists.
They LIE.
They pull stuff out of context.
They distort.
They preach intolerance.
The preach ignorance.
And it time for other Christians to shine the full light of the Gospel upon them.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by PaulK, posted 11-02-2005 11:07 AM PaulK has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 291 by Buzsaw, posted 11-02-2005 11:32 AM jar has not replied

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