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Author Topic:   I'm trying: a stairway to heaven?
Legend
Member (Idle past 5007 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 61 of 303 (255863)
10-31-2005 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by iano
10-31-2005 5:06 PM


Re: Jesus gave directions
iano writes:
Jesus' instructions do lead exactly where the man wants to go
ian, are you backpedaling now ? You've been saying all along that Jesus's directions can never lead the man to where he wants to go. Now you're saying that they can ?!
Jesus knows that the man will never get there following his directions.
Yet, he tells the man to follow directions that won't lead him to where he wants to go.
Jesus lied to the man.
iano writes:
The maintenance manual for my Yamaha Fazer 1000 explains how one should go about servicing this motorcycle. That the person reading it has not the ability to carry out the task described therein is not a problem for the manual.
You've totally ignored part of my previous post. Let me repeat myself :
Legend writes:
Let me re-iterate my point: When the rich man asks Jesus how to get saved, he's not asking a hypothetical question. He's not saying "what would one do in the unlikely event one would want to get saved ?" If that was the case, then you might have a point that Jesus would give him the general directions without caring about whether they could be followed or not.
But that's not the case. The man wants to get saved. He's asking Jesus a direct and immediate question. He says "tell me what to do to get saved". And Jesus tells him. If he knew the directions he gave couldn't be followed then he lied to the man. Do you think Jesus was a liar ?
To put it in the context of your analogy, it's like me ringing up the Yamaha dealer and saying "how do I adjust the valve clearances on a fazer 1000? By the way, I'm blind."
The dealer says "No problem, I'll show you". And he posts me the manual!!
There only three possible explanations I can think of in this case :
A. The dealer lied to me
B. The dealer misled me (intentionally or unintentionally).
C. The dealer doesn't give a toss whether I adjust the valve clearances on my bike.
Which one do you think it is ?

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by iano, posted 10-31-2005 5:06 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by iano, posted 10-31-2005 7:01 PM Legend has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 62 of 303 (255865)
10-31-2005 6:38 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by iano
10-31-2005 6:26 PM


Re: Jesus gave directions
When/if you get on-topic I'll be all ears
But I am on topic. I have said that the entire Bible describes God as being righteous and holy - and that a righteous and holy Father would not demand from His children more than they can deliver.
If you want to seriously defend your position, you have to deal with that.

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by iano, posted 10-31-2005 6:26 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by iano, posted 10-31-2005 6:47 PM ringo has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 63 of 303 (255875)
10-31-2005 6:47 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by ringo
10-31-2005 6:38 PM


Re: Jesus gave directions
Ringo writes:
But I am on topic. I have said that the entire Bible describes God as being righteous and holy
I would agree that this is evident from scripture
and that a righteous and holy Father would not demand from His children more than they can deliver.
You have a logical conclusion of your own above. For what it's worth. I don't see anything wrong with this man-made logical conclusion. But we're not on man-made logic here. We're on biblical logic...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by ringo, posted 10-31-2005 6:38 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by ringo, posted 10-31-2005 7:08 PM iano has replied

Legend
Member (Idle past 5007 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 64 of 303 (255876)
10-31-2005 6:50 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by iano
10-31-2005 5:23 PM


Re: Jesus gave directions
iano writes:
Maybe I should quit using analogies - because they lead to expansion the analogy didn't intend.
I'm sorry but I read this as "Maybe I should quit using analogies when they illustrate a point opposite to the one I'm making"
iano writes:
In this case you decide the M4 is closed
No, no, no - *You* decided the M4 was closed, *you* are the one claiming that the man cannot gain eternal life by following Jesus' directions. *You* are the one claiming that the man cannot get to London following the M4.
iano writes:
but the M4 isn't closed.
.....and maybe you just changed your mind....
so, can someone love their neighbour as themselves ? yes or no ?
by extension can someone get through the blocked M4, yes or no ?
iano writes:
All the driver has to do is follow the instructions as given: follow the directions to the letter and you will get there.
But you're the one saying that the driver cannot get there by these directions. Never. Ever.
You're the one saying noone can love their neighbour as themselves.
You're the one saying the M4 is closed - noone can get through to London that way.
iano writes:
The onus is on the driver to follow them - not the giver of the deadly accurate instructions.
But the giver of the deadly accurate instructions is also a giver of patently false instructions. Because he knows that they cannot be followed.
Let me ask you again: Someone wants to get to London and he asks me for directions. If I tell him "get on the M4, etc" knowing full well that the M4 is closed, then haven't I just mislead the man ?
Yes or No ?

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by iano, posted 10-31-2005 5:23 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by iano, posted 10-31-2005 7:58 PM Legend has not replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 65 of 303 (255879)
10-31-2005 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Legend
10-31-2005 6:27 PM


Re: Jesus gave directions
Legend writes:
ian, are you backpedaling now ?
I would rather slit my own throat...slowly
You've been saying all along that Jesus's directions can never lead the man to where he wants to go. Now you're saying that they can ?!
The devil (sic - it's really salvation) is in the detail. I have said Jesus gave instructions as to what was required for man to do - in repsonse to a question by man as to what he must do to be saved. "Jump over the moon" is an honest answer if that is the question asked. We can't talk about Jesus lying or deceiving if he has answered the question honestly. Can we?
The thing is to stop extrapolating out to include things that AREN'T there. Look at what IS there instead.
Note the couple of verses that follow this. Jesus gives his 'rich man through the eye of a needle' analogy and the disciples, somehow (and they are in a better position to note it than we are, come to the conclusion "who then can be saved" Do you see it Legend (you great husband you ):
"Harder for a rich man..." specific to rich men
"Who then can be saved..." universal
Why did the disciples universalise the analogy?
Jesus knows that the man will never get there following his directions.
Remember the crucifixion. There was a reason for it. This was it
It's not like these were the only words Jesus ever spoke. "I am the way and the truth and the life. Nobody comes to the Father except through me" seems like a decent alternative to motorway guidance illiterates. Or anybody who sees "FOLLOW COMMANDS AND BE SAVED" alongside "I CAN'T FOLLOW THE COMMAND THUS I AM DOOMED"
Jesus lied to the man
Q: "How do I buy a F1 racing car?"
A: "$5,000,000"
Q: "But I haven't got $5,000,000"
A: "I must be lying then"
This message has been edited by iano, 01-Nov-2005 12:03 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Legend, posted 10-31-2005 6:27 PM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Legend, posted 11-01-2005 8:00 AM iano has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 66 of 303 (255880)
10-31-2005 7:08 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by iano
10-31-2005 6:47 PM


Re: Jesus gave directions
I don't see anything wrong with this man-made logical conclusion. But we're not on man-made logic here. We're on biblical logic...
But man-made logic is all we have. If there is a separate "Biblical logic", which arrives at a different conclusion - and you are the only one who seems to see it - then why do you refuse to share it with us?

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by iano, posted 10-31-2005 6:47 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by iano, posted 10-31-2005 7:21 PM ringo has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 67 of 303 (255882)
10-31-2005 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by ringo
10-31-2005 7:08 PM


Re: Jesus gave directions
Ringo writes:
But man-made logic is all we have. If there is a separate "Biblical logic", which arrives at a different conclusion - and you are the only one who seems to see it - then why do you refuse to share it with us?
1 Corinthian 2:14 "Those who are unspiritual do not receive the gifts of Gods spirit, for they are foolishness to them and they are unable to understand them for they are spiritually discerned"
Now if I was spiritual and you weren't then I would discern things that you would not. Not because I am smarter but purely because I am spiritual. Mans logic would seem to play second fiddle in this case. The worlds 'dummy' who was spiritual could discern things that the worlds 'intellectual giant' who weren't spiritual, couldn't.
Last call Ringo. Biblical case - not your own non-biblical exratpolations as to what must be - but which aren't in the bible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by ringo, posted 10-31-2005 7:08 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by ringo, posted 10-31-2005 7:52 PM iano has replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 68 of 303 (255883)
10-31-2005 7:27 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by iano
10-31-2005 5:37 PM


quote:
What would you make of a God whereby your salvation had absolutely nothing to do with your behaviour but on your hearts reaction to your behaviour.
I'm not sure I'm the one to ask about this, iano; the question seems to presume the concepts of "sin" and "salvation", which seem to be rather "cartoonish" to me. It's not that I can't get into the idea of "eternal damnation" in the context of a fun horror movie, or the idea of "sin" in the depiction of some fictional character as debauched; I don't think it makes very good practical theology in the real world.

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by iano, posted 10-31-2005 5:37 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by iano, posted 10-31-2005 7:38 PM Chiroptera has replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 69 of 303 (255884)
10-31-2005 7:29 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by macaroniandcheese
10-31-2005 6:00 PM


Yes, I agree; the OT god seems much more like the classical gods in the other religions in that region and at that time (I especially like the depiction of God in Job, where he eggs Satan on at a drinking party). Very much different from the Hellenistic idea of a Perfect Being, pretty much transcendent of the material world, that we read about in the NT.

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by macaroniandcheese, posted 10-31-2005 6:00 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by macaroniandcheese, posted 10-31-2005 7:58 PM Chiroptera has not replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 70 of 303 (255887)
10-31-2005 7:38 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Chiroptera
10-31-2005 7:27 PM


Chiro writes:
I'm not sure I'm the one to ask about this, iano...
I know...it seemed like a bit 'batty' a question to ask such a die-in-the-wool atheist... but to persevere:
If there was a God and if there was sin and if damnation was the default situation for all mankind. And there's two God options. Which do you think best fits with the concept of Good News
a) a God where you've got to try your..er.damndest in order to avoid damnation?
b) a God who realises your trying your best isn't good enough and sorts it for you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Chiroptera, posted 10-31-2005 7:27 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Chiroptera, posted 11-01-2005 10:40 AM iano has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 71 of 303 (255893)
10-31-2005 7:52 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by iano
10-31-2005 7:21 PM


Re: Jesus gave directions
iano writes:
Now if I was spiritual and you weren't then I would discern things that you would not. Not because I am smarter but purely because I am spiritual.
quote:
Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Biblical case - not your own non-biblical exratpolations as to what must be....
But it is in the Bible, as you have been shown:
  1. God is not an idiot.
  2. God is not a sadist.
  3. Therefore, God would not demand more of His children than they can deliver.
  4. Nobody has shown - Biblically or otherwise - that that logic is incorrect.
  5. Jesus gave simple instructions for salvation - Love thy neighbour as thyself.
  6. The Bible documents cases of people who were able to follow the law.
The Biblical case for "trying" seems pretty solid and no case against it has been proposed.

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by iano, posted 10-31-2005 7:21 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by iano, posted 10-31-2005 8:09 PM ringo has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 72 of 303 (255899)
10-31-2005 7:58 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Legend
10-31-2005 6:50 PM


Re: Jesus gave directions
Legend writes:
No, no, no - *You* decided the M4 was closed, *you* are the one claiming that the man cannot gain eternal life by following Jesus' directions. *You* are the one claiming that the man cannot get to London following the M4.
I didn't say anything about the M4 being closed. I said the man couldn't read. The M4 is open.
so, can someone love their neighbour as themselves ? yes or no ?
by extension can someone get to the M4 if they can't read directions?
In both cases NO.
I had to retype the above to correct your modificaton back to fit the oringinal analogy
The rest of your post inserts closed M4. It isn't though. The problem purely lies in the fact the person can't read. But in order to give directions you cannot but point out the signposts. You can twist the analogy again and say why didnt he say 3rd right, second exit, 5th right etc.
I would then be allowed modify the analogy to say that the person driving was blind. The problem is never in the instructions. Whatever instructions given, we are always outside them. The only way is to be led there by someone else. Not get there on our own.
"Salvation is of God" As long as we think we can get there on our own we remain independant of God. Which is the problem. God wants us dependant on him precisely because we have shown - in full measure - that we can't get along without him

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Legend, posted 10-31-2005 6:50 PM Legend has not replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 73 of 303 (255900)
10-31-2005 7:58 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Chiroptera
10-31-2005 7:29 PM


i think he's much more personable. the only attributes we know for sure of god is that he knows everything and he lives forever.
i prefer a god i can wrestle with.
This message has been edited by brennakimi, 10-31-2005 07:58 PM

And why you think you take a Ho to a Ho-tel
Ho-tell everybody, even the mayor
Reach up in the sky for the Ho-zone layer
Now C'mon playa wants a Ho always
And Ho's neva close, they open like hallways

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Chiroptera, posted 10-31-2005 7:29 PM Chiroptera has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by iano, posted 10-31-2005 8:11 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 74 of 303 (255902)
10-31-2005 8:09 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by ringo
10-31-2005 7:52 PM


Re: Jesus gave directions
iano writes:
Now if I was spiritual and you weren't then I would discern things that you would not. Not because I am smarter but purely because I am spiritual.
Ringo writes:
Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
?
God is not an idiot. God is not a sadist. Therefore, God would not demand more of His children than they can deliver.
He crucified his own son. And you say he is not a sadist. So why did he do that then? Surely if he could lower his standards so that we could fulfill them then Jesus crucifixion would have been unnecessary.
Why kill Christ?
Nobody has shown - Biblically or otherwise - that that logic is incorrect.
Nobody has shown 'try' biblically. All they have inserted is "it seems reasonable to me (and the rest of the world who aren't watching". Sure, any old fool can have an opinion
Jesus gave simple instructions for salvation - Love thy neighbour as thyself.
But you nor I nor anybody else follows them. This is the OP by the way. There is no try
The Bible documents cases of people who were able to follow the law.
The bible details people who were righteous and upstanding and in whom there was no fault etc. You need to tie that to this being result of them following the law.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by ringo, posted 10-31-2005 7:52 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by ringo, posted 10-31-2005 8:20 PM iano has not replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 75 of 303 (255903)
10-31-2005 8:11 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by macaroniandcheese
10-31-2005 7:58 PM


Brennakimi writes:
I think he's much more personable. the only attributes we know for sure of god is that he knows everything and he lives forever.
The only way we can know that is if the bible is God-breathed. There is no way to infer that from the world around us. In which case we know a fair bit more about him.
This message has been edited by iano, 01-Nov-2005 01:12 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by macaroniandcheese, posted 10-31-2005 7:58 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by macaroniandcheese, posted 10-31-2005 8:22 PM iano has replied

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