The Fires of Hell Have Gone Out: No Eternal Torment

Actually the eternal fires of "Hell" do not exist anymore.The NT word translated as hell is actually Gehenna which is Greek for the Valley of Hinnom. After the Jews returned from the Babylonian exile, the valley became the city’s incinerator. Apparently they even added sulpur or brimstone to keep the fires burning continuously.Gehenna became a vivid symbol of destruction and an abomination.Therefore if your dead body was thrown into Gehenna, you were deemed a criminal. Your body was destroyed and you had no part in the world to come. This is the picture that the NT authors were presenting, not eternal torment.Gehenna is no longer burning. Photos of HellFortunately the scriptures do not support the teaching of eternal torment.The only scripture that might support the teaching is: If one was to receive eternal torment as taught, then the person would still be "living".
IOW being tormented throughout his eternal life, but this verse states that only the righteous receive eternal life.Therefore the punishment is death by destruction in the Lake of Fire, which is eternal in the sense that it is a permanent judgment. No resurrection for this person.Eternal life is for the righteous and all others just cease to exist.
________Bible Study Please

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The NT word translated as hell is actually Gehenna which is Greek for the Valley of Hinnom.

Can you substantiate this claim, with evidence, and maybe scholarly analysis?

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Greek Lexicon
Strongs

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Wrong, the NT writes were depicting Gehenna's torture, eternal.

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Then you are saying that everyone gets eternal life.

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Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission. -Eleanor Roosevelt-

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The writers used this place to describe the reality of what hell is.

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A place where dead criminals were burned, destroyed. Not tormented.So do you consider everyone to have eternal life?ABE: The verses concerning hell are not comparing anything to Gehenna.This message has been edited by purpledawn, 10-30-2005 08:29 PM

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Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission. -Eleanor Roosevelt-

My Bible doesn't have Hades translated as hell, but I know it has been used that way. Originally the old English word hell meant "that which is covered (hidden or unseen)". When first used it would have been an adequate translation for Hades, but still not for Gehenna. Gehenna is a proper name for a real place.

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Hell here is 'Hades', the lake of fire isn't Gehenna.

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No the lake of fire here isn't Gehenna, but then The Book of Revelations is a symbolic writing and since Hades/Hell is being thrown into the "lake of fire". The lake of fire does not represent Hades/Hell either.In working through the symbolism in Revelations I don't see that eternal torment is presented in this passage.

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Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission. -Eleanor Roosevelt-

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Here we see Hades being a place of torment and flames.

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That is a parable being told by Jesus. The parable is crafted to emphasize the point, not present facts.The point of the parable is the last line: The story is aimed at the selfishness of the Jewish leaders and wealthy people.Don't miss the point for the props.

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Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission. -Eleanor Roosevelt-

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It seems likely that at least some of Y'shua's listeners would have been familiar with the book, or at least its description of the after life, and would have seen it as not being purely allegorical.

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They probably were, but it doesn't make this parable a teaching on the afterlife or any part of the parable true.It is fiction and should be read as such.The important part is the lesson intended. Nothing else.

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Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission. -Eleanor Roosevelt-

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The burning of the criminals was used to offer a glimpse of Hell.

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The criminals were already dead. There is no torment to glimpse. Only destruction.In Message 11 I show that Hell is not an accurate translation for Gehenna which is a proper noun. It is like substituting your name for mine.

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I have to take a clear stance on this issue, I hate the idea of a hell, yet I don't want to abandon my principles, and my faith.

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Which teachings do you feel support the idea of eternal torment by God?

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Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission. -Eleanor Roosevelt-

Your verse from 2 Peter is also not hell. The word used is tartaroo. It is a mythical place of retention, not torture.

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To soften the messages of the text, as scholars, and lately, purpledawn does with Jesus' parables, is wrong, and is the "easy was out".

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I feel it is wrong to misrepresent the text. Nothing I have presented negates the judgment of the wicked.Their judgement is death, total destruction, permanent separation from God.
A judgment that is never reversed for all eternity.Merciful and torture do not go together.

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Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission. -Eleanor Roosevelt-

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Are you saying that Jesus made up a firey underworld of torment to emphasize a point?

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No. I'm saying that Jesus, the storyteller, is going to use whatever is familiar to his audience to make his point.As truthlover commented in Message 14, the writings of Enoch were probably familiar to his audience. His audience was probably also familiar with Greek and Roman mythology.Also there was more than one Jewish Sect or school of thought. The Sadducees didn't believe in a spirit world or resurrection, but the Pharisees and Essenes did.Just as we have religious beliefs and traditions today that aren't supported by the canon, people of the past also had beliefs and traditions that weren't necessarily based on what was considered God's word.Bottom line: This teaching of this parable was not about the underworld, but selfishness.

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Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission. -Eleanor Roosevelt-

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So the people were familiar with a burning world of torment but Jesus was of the opinion that it didn't exist, yet he reinforced this false belief by pretty much discussing its existence in public?

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No. I'm saying that people understood the use of parables. Odds are that Jesus setup the parable better than the author of Luke did.Using your rationale, all good people will actually be in the bosom of Abraham. I don't think the man was that big! Jesus didn't teach that the righteous would end up in the bosom of Abraham either, but it is in this parable.

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Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission. -Eleanor Roosevelt-

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I can't see how one can see this in any way that doesn't indicate that good people who put up with a load of suffering on earth will have their rewards in heaven, and those that take their rewards on earth (serving mammon), will be tormented in Hades.

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Lazarus was not deemed good and the rich man was not deemed bad. This is not about the rich actually being tormented because they have money or vice versa. Bad poor people still get judgement and rich good people still get the rewards.The lesson of the parable is about selfishness.Treat others the way you want to be treated.

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Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission. -Eleanor Roosevelt-

Don't blend your stories. Each parable is separate.There is a parable: Luke 16:1-9
Then there are some sayings.
Then there is the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man.The phrase before our parable is about divorce, but this parable isn't about that either. The saying on mammon has nothing to do with this parable.Repenting is nothing more than changing one's mind for the better. So he is saying that if someone went to them from the dead they would change their ways.

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The selfless (Good) people who suffer on earth will have their rewards in heaven. The selfish servants of mammon who have their rewards on earth will be tormented in Hades.

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Nothing says that Lazarus was a good or selfless person. Nothing in the parable says the rich man served money. He just didn't use what he had to help Lazarus.It deals with one issue.

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Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission. -Eleanor Roosevelt-

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Still, these points are side points. The rich man still ended up in Hades suffering torment and fire.

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For the purposes of this story.But the parable is fiction and still not a teaching of eternal torment.

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Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission. -Eleanor Roosevelt-

He didn't.

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Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission. -Eleanor Roosevelt-

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Given that we are having this conversation I think the evidence is in favour of my position.

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Unfortunately we can't poll the actual audience.But Paul's epistles don't seem to speak of eternal torment at all and he would have been closest to the fall out of the time as far as writing.Even in Acts eternal torment is not mentioned. Hades a couple of times, but no eternal torment.Plus no Hades mentioned in the Book of Mark.And the rest of the supposed teachings of Jesus do not support eternal torment.So if that is what you walk away with from the parable, then so be it. There is nothing more I can add.

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Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission. -Eleanor Roosevelt-