I'm trying: a stairway to heaven?

Uh... the Romans crucified Jesus. You have been shown that we can fulfil them. Jesus' crucifixion was unnecessary. His message would be no less important if He had died of old age. Aren't you paying attention? Zacharias and Elizabeth did follow them.

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People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

i quite disagree. based on the experiences of the jewish people, and their claims of god, we know only that he is all-knowing and eternal. yes he is powerful, but we do not know the extent of his power. further, he can be beaten. jacob wrestled with him (physically) and won. thus we know also that he has a body whether he maintains it or not.from the creation myth, we know that god wanted to create something to keep him company. he was lonely. wouldn't he want an equal and not a slave? so the two mystical things he gives to his creation are knowledge and life. thus, these are the things that would make us like him. these would make us his companions. but he can't give us both or we would be so inexperienced and immature that we'd do something stupid. so we got to pick which one. eventually we will attain the other. we picked knowledge. the rest is construction.he is much like all the other regional deities. but i think he's better.

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And why you think you take a Ho to a Ho-tel
Ho-tell everybody, even the mayor
Reach up in the sky for the Ho-zone layer
Now C'mon playa wants a Ho always
And Ho's neva close, they open like hallways

I can indentify with a lot of what you've said here brennakimi.

I am reading. So far Legend seems to be doing a good job defending his position.As far as a biblical defence is concerned, please start a new thread for it. I'm currently involved in several other in-depth debates right now -- but I think I can spare some time for one more.

The OP asked folk to make a biblical case for 'trying'. Legend, as far a can recall hasn't used the bible to make the case. Putting up something that reads as a command and saying that it only means try - based only on own rationale as to what it must mean - is making a case from own rationale not the bible. I don't see why a new thread is necessary. Just because many have so far have not dealt with the OP but have diverted off into own opinion into what it must mean doesn't mean you have to.

I think I must have misunderstood you. You said "the only things we can know for certain", IIRC. I assumed you meant that these things were true: ie: God exists in fact and these are things we know for certain about him.If it is only Jewish claims then we don't know anything for certain - just what some people claim - for certain.Which is a different thing altogether

* That's the whole point * : if he gave the man directions he knew couldn't be followed then he WAS dishonest.Let me ask you yet again: Someone wants to get to London and he asks me for directions. If I tell him "get on the M4, etc" knowing full well that the M4 is closed, then haven't I just mislead the man ?Yes or No ? what IS there is that someone asks Jesus for directions. And Jesus gives him directions. It's clear and it's simple.* You * are the one who's assuming that the directions can't be followed.* You * are the one who's failing to support your assumptionIf you think noone can love God and love their neighbour as themselves, now would be a good time to tell us why you think so (in the right context please). It's harder for a rich man, as he's got more to give up. Jesus says *harder*, not *impossible*. You're the one who says it's impossible. You're contradicting Jesus. ...??...sorry, you lost me there! Jesus says that only he is the Judge. What's that got to do with the topic here ?? this is a FALSE analogy.this is the right analogy :Q: "How do I buy a F1 racing car? I've only got $1000."
A: "sorry mate, the car costs $5,000,000. You can't buy it." (Honest answer)
or
A: "invest your money in shares and when you get $5,000,000 you can buy the car" (Honest answer)
or
A: "sure, $1000 will buy you the car!" (Dishonest answer - the car costs $5,000,000)Which do you think is the answer Jesus have to the rich man ? (Hint: it's the last one)

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

You are the one who's asking us to discard any shred of common sense and reasoning and assume that when Jesus was directly asked for directions he gave directions that coudln't be followed AND he wasn't being dishonest! oh.... I hadn't realized the Bible was OUTSIDE LOGIC !!here I was thinking we could make sense of it.....should have known better!

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

Excellent point and I concur.It seems to me that iano is discarding basic reasoning and common sense in order to shoehorn his theological pre-conceptions into the synoptics.To most of us, if someone knowingly gives us false directions then we conclude that this person lied or misled us.Not so for iano. According to iano, it's ok to knowingly give false directions, there's nothing wrong with it.Biblical Logic 101, any suggestions please ??

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

Please don't misrepresent me.....I always said that the problem is with the giver of the instructions!If I give the driver directions that cannot be followed by any driver who's causing the problem: me or the driver ?If Jesus gives the rich man directions that cannot be followed by any man (as you claim) who's causing the problem: Jesus or the rich man ?

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

immatterial of whether he really exists or not, these are the only attributes we can know for certain he has. but if he doesn't exist then why does it matter?that statement was a description of the bible as a folklore not 'god-breathed' but not necessarily entirely false.

I'm afraid your logic is off Legend. I would ask you to answer the following:Q: what must I do to jump over the moon?
A: Jump over the moon.The problem above lies in the questioner not realising his question is ridiculous. But he's asked it - on the incorrect assumption that it is a reasonable question - that man can do something to achieve his own salvation. In the face of the answer he should see how ridiculous it is (in fact the rich man turned away - he couldn't do what Jesus asked - highlighting the point. Jesus is not being dishonest. Jesus told Nicodemous "that unless a man is born again he shall not see the kingdom of heaven". Nicodemus was flabbergasted "How can a man be born again?!" It was impossible for Nicodemus to "born himself again". But was Jesus being dishonest in telling him that this is the way it is? You would have. But the M4 isn't closed no matter how many times you state it is. The problem is again with the questioner not the answerer. The blind man asked directions, he ignores the fact he is blind. And gets the answer to the question he asks precisely as he wants it. He is happy with it. "This is what I must do.." Then he goes of trying to follow the directions. The problem is he is blind. Thats the problem.The thing is Jesus knows the man is blind and offers to take him there himself. The blind man must:a) realise he is blind
b) can't follow the directions (even if he has to spends some years going around in circles and banging into things)
c) realise he needs to depend on the direction giver - the person who knows the way - to lead him there. He needs to accept the offer to be led thereThat's the gospel in a nutshell for you I know no one can follow the directions. Everyone knows that too. It's just that folk are under some illusion here that by doing their best to follow most of the directions most of the time that they will get to London. Patently they won't The OP asks those who reckon 'try' to show 'try'. Biblically. There are commands. That's the start point. They are the words we read. A command word remains a command word unless shown otherwise biblically. Look at the full story:"Harder for a rich man...than a camel to get through the eye of a needle"You think it is possible for a camel to get through the eye of a needle then Legend Patently the disciples concur with me on this particular point "exceedingly amazed they asked "who then can be saved" (note that Gods word here extrapolate the problem beyond just the rich)Listen: Jesus replies "with men this is impossible but with God all things are possible" A man may TRY to get himself to heaven. Both the disciples and Jesus say here it is impossible. Only God can do the saving. Jesus knows man cannot follow his directions. He knows the man is blind. So he offers to give him a lift to the destination himself. Jesus is the vehicle and you have got to hitch a ride in him. "But now there is no condemnation for those IN Christ Jesus. The cross is the place where Jesus was turned into a salvation vehicle "Nobody comes to the Father". The Father is the destination. Jesus the vehicle. Jesus delivers you to his Father. It is through (or "by this means" or "in") him you arrive at the destination.Q: "How do I buy a F1 racing car?" (anyone is entitled to ask)
A: "$5,000,000" (honest answer to the question asked)
Q: "But I haven't got $5,000,000"
A: "I must be lying then"Whats the problem with the above? You said Jesus would have been lying. Wheres the lie?Your version adds what isn't there. See it? The rich man didn't come saying what he had in his wallet. He only asked how much. When the cost was totted up "Give up your riches..." He walked away. He realised himself he hadn't got enough. He didn't need to be told. The price tag told him.The directions are the directions. They are what they are. It's up to us to accept that we can't follow them. Or persist in thinking that we can...This message has been edited by iano, 01-Nov-2005 03:13 PM

Sin. Mans sin. Man is the one with the problem. Take a law. Don't lust. Now you might not want to, you may try very hard not to, you may feel that it is somehow degrading the relationship you have with you wife to do so. But you will do it. And for a person who thinks following this law the best the can will suffice comes up against the fact that even if they stumble over only the tiniest piece of the law "they are guilty of breaking all of the law"The problem is sin. Our sin. And Jesus offers us a way around the problem. But it ain't by trying to do our best. Sin is in us. Trying doesn't prevent it working. The harder you try the more religious you will become. Join a monestary even - to get away from all the temptation of the world. But sin will follow you thereSin isn't destroyed by trying it is destroyed only on the cross. Only there are we freed from sin. "And if the son makes you free you will be free indeed" None of this half-measure illusionary trying/religious rubbish

If not God-breathed then nothing factual may be known with certainty about God if he exists. Who could tell which bit is accurate?

The thing about common sense is that it isn't all that common. Your version of salvation would differ from anothers depending on which reasoning you come up with. Which means there would be dozens of personalized possibilities for salvation. Subjective salvation as it were. If you have a view then, for the reason given, you would do will to set aside your subjective reasoning (and all the weaknesses that subjective argument brings) and use the scripture to back up your case. Let the book do the talking.At the moment there is a command. That's all we have biblically so far