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Author | Topic: Pat Robertson on natural disasters | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Asgara writes: So buz, you are saying that the last 100 years is short term? But I thought you told jar that these types of things have been increasing in "recent decades." You can't have it both ways buz, either we look at the last 10 decades or we call that short term and we go further back. 1. Go back and read all of me. More than once, I have made it clear that I am talking about the decades since Israel became a nation and that the prophecies pertaining to the middle east, Israel et al corroborate/strengthen the argument that the increase in natural disasters over those last decades up until the present are significant prophetically. 2. I'm not getting where I gave you the notion that we were talking 100 years. Please note that when I brought forward the OP of this thread I emphasised words and terms in that OP which specified that Robertson was referring to recent events. How many times do I have to tell you people this? If I stop responding to the incessant insistence by counterparts that we go further back, don't be surprised. It's getting me irritated and it's off topic as per the OP. You and jar as moderators should honor that.
Asgara writes: OK, we have shown that hurricanes and earthquakes are not increasing. How about the tsunamis you listed? No, we have shown that earthquakes have not increased up until 2000 and that though hurricanes have had lull years, the overall weather related natural disasters are on the increase due to several factors, including global warming, et al. I have shown also that overall all disasters combined are on the increase in recent decades. Btw, I would need HTML to access your link. If it's on tsunamis perse, please remember thatwe're talking combined disaster incidents and not individual causes.
Asgara writes: Oh, buz? Please take note that these links I have been giving you are from official sites such as NOAA and USGS. But having read your articles, here is the first link off the MSNBCEarth News - Environmental Science Articles So far buz, all you have produced is a word for word news report of a livescience report from the Center for Research on Epidemiology of Disasters (CRED) in Brussels, Belgium. I have the info from the CRED database and will look at their figures later, but now I have to leave for work. But you're picking and choosing what will skew the debate to your advantage. The thing for you to do, if my link has false information is to specify what in it is false and we will talk about that. Btw, speaking of the NOAA, check out this special report on natural disaster landfall hurricanes:
SPECIAL REPORT: writes:
The Increasing Frequency of Major Hurricanes Making Landfall on the USA...(A WebPennys.com Exclusive Report) Last year... in 2004... 4 major Hurricanes slammed the coast of Florida... each one of these Hurricanes was a minimum Cat 3 when it made landfall, and one, Hurricane Charley was actually a Cat 4... it was a historic occurrence... one that many people thought of as a 1-of event, or a fluke. This year, there has already been 3 Hurricanes make landfall on the USA... 2 of these Hurricanes (Katrina and Rita) have both reached Cat 5 levels, another historic event in itself. The list of historic major Hurricanes making landfall recorded by NOAA reads like this... (note that NOAA hasn't updated their page yet to include the 2005 storms... which I've included below)... 1900 Galveston Hurricane1919 Atlantic-Gulf Hurricane 1926 Great Miami Hurricane 1928 San Felipe-Okeechobee Hurricane 1935 Florida Keys Labor Day Hurricane 1938 New England Hurricane 1944 Great Atlantic Hurricane 1954 Hurricane Carol 1954 Hurricane Edna 1954 Hurricane Hazel 1955 Hurricane Connie 1955 Hurricane Diane 1957 Hurricane Audrey 1960 Hurricane Donna 1969 Hurricane Camille 1972 Hurricane Agnes 1983 Hurricane Alicia 1988 Hurricane Gilbert 1989 Hurricane Hugo 1992 Hurricane Andrew 1995 Hurricane Opal 1998 Hurricane Mitch 1999 Hurricane Floyd 2000 Hurricane Keith 2001 Hurricane Iris 2003 Hurricane Isabel 2004 Hurricane Charley 2004 Hurricane Frances 2004 Hurricane Ivan 2004 Hurricane Jeanne 2005 Hurricane Dennis 2005 Hurricane Katrina 2005 Hurricane Rita When considering the data... even if you completely ignore Global Warming speculation, and look purely at the stats by decade... you'll see the USA is currently caught-up in a increasing trend of major hurricanes making landfall on it's shores... and the current trend being established over the past 2 decades would seem to indicate that the odds of frequency diminishing back to pre-1970 levels anytime soon would be somewhat remote... http://www.webpennys.com/hurricane_frequency_study/ It should be noted also that nearly all the meteorologists are predicting that the planet is entering a long term period of severe weather due to the warming of the sea waters, global warming and other factors. EDITED TO ADD: PLEASE NOTE THAT ALL BUT SIX OF THE MAJOR LANDFALL HURRICANES IN THE NOAA LIST ARE AFTER ISRAEL BECAME A NATION AND MOST OF THEM AFTER THE WORLD FOCUS TURNED ON THE MIDDLE EAST AS PER BIBLICAL PROPHECY. This message has been edited by buzsaw, 10-31-2005 11:16 PM Edit II to add website link This message has been edited by buzsaw, 11-02-2005 10:57 AM The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
jar writes: Faith left because she was shown time after time, thread after thread, message after message, to be wrong. Hopefully she is using this time to rethink her positions and to reassess her conclusions and faith. "To be wrong?" You, jar, are admonishing others for being wrong?
jar writes: Truth will win out over ignorance and intolerance. ....and it appears that truth is winning out with Robertson on the side of factual truth, so far as the OP goes, and the intolerant bashers on the side of ignorance so far as judging the Robertson quotes posted in the OP. The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw
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Asgara Member (Idle past 2293 days) Posts: 1783 From: Wisconsin, USA Joined: |
I have made it clear that I am talking about the decades since Israel became a nation and that the prophecies pertaining to the middle east, Israel et al corroborate/strengthen the argument that the increase in natural disasters over those last decades up until the present are significant prophetically. Buz I know you are talking about the recent decades...but what are you comparing them to? I gave you data from the last 100 years...you can compare the recent 50 to the prior 50. You can NOT claim that recent years have had an increase in natural disasters if you do not look at prior years. An increase from WHAT?? There is no comparison if you only look at one dataset. It is NOT off topic to insist on evidence of increasing natural disasters in a thread dedicated to someone making references of increasing natural disasters.
Btw, I would need HTML to access your link. If it's on tsunamis perse, please remember thatwe're talking combined disaster incidents and not individual causes Um Buz? You're using HTML to access just about every page you have ever viewed online. Are you talking about the pdf link? If you do not have Adobe Reader, I suggest you get it. Many of the best links out there are in PDF format. It is a free download from Adobe. Here is the graph from that link. http://img499.imageshack.us/img499/5990/tsunami12tq.png Please give me an actual link to the NOAA data you say you are accessing, because the links I am giving you show nothing of the sort. U.S. Hurricane Strikes by Decade (Text)
PLEASE NOTE THAT ALL BUT SIX OF THE MAJOR LANDFALL HURRICANES IN THE NOAA LIST ARE AFTER ISRAEL BECAME A NATION Interestingly enough the NOAA page listed here, showing the "most intense mainland United States hurricanes, 1851-2004 (includes only major hurricanes at their most intense landfall)" show that 6 of the top 10 were pre-1948. The Most Intense Hurricanes in the United States 1851-2004 (Text) Buz, if I am picking and choosing, you are guilty of the same, but at least I am giving you all the information I am using. If you want me to read your links please give some. So far you have only given me one page I can actually link to and read for myself. The only thing I am picking and choosing are disasters. I am going disaster type by disaster type. You claim that natural disasters are on the rise and I am showing that hurricanes, earthquakes, and tsunamis are NOT on the rise. Your two links were actually one. The other was a word for word retelling of the first. I have been looking at the CRED database. It can not be used for any type of comparison because it has too many fields where it has no data. Too many early years and too many countries/regions with no data given. In droughts by country alone, 3/7 of the information is missing. It does not take into consideration increasingly better reporting, increasingly better methods of detection, etc. The country by country query does not take into consideration the changing boundaries and name changes over the past 100 years.
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Funkaloyd Inactive Member |
Buz, even if it were shown that there has been no increase in natural disasters since 1948, would that change your mind regarding the end being near?
Anyway, I seriously recommend that you read this. It's written by a Christian (and not exactly a liberal one).
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Silent H Member (Idle past 5810 days) Posts: 7405 From: satellite of love Joined: |
So, I guess the libertarians are intolerant of everybody? I hate people like that! If there were only ignorant intolerant liberals and ignorant intolerant conservatives, then yes. Thankfully, no matter how bad any society has gotten (regarding ignorance or intolerance) there has always been some number of liberals and conservatives who champion knowledge and tolerance. They've simply seldom been in the majority for long. holmes "...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)
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PaulK Member Posts: 17815 Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
quote: As well as showing an increase in natural disasters you've also got to have a prophecy. And you don't.
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
PaulK writes: As well as showing an increase in natural disasters you've also got to have a prophecy. And you don't. The disasters evidence is just that. It's not empirical evidence that we have a prophecy, true, but it's evidence. As I have shown, it's corroborated by other evidence suggesting prophecy. As in science, the more corroborating evidence you have, the more of a case you make that you have a valid theory which to work on. Corroborating evidence as follows: 1. Prophecies of Israel's regathering and rebirth as a nation prophesied for latter days at a time when the cities and villages of Israel will not have walls; at a time when Israel will be surrounded by hostile nations; at a time when there will be a confederation of nations which will emerge on Israel; at a time when another block of nations will protest the invasion; at a time when nations north of Israel and nations like Libya and Etheopia (i.e. Northern Africa) will be confederate with the nations surrounding Israel; at a time when all the nations of the world will be drawn into one conflict. For all this please read carefully, Ezekiel, chapters 37, 38 and 39 and Zechariah 14 for starters. 2. Prophecy of high tech where all nations of the world will be able to view an event in one spot on the planet. Revelation 11:9, Revelation 17:18:9. 3. Prophecy of a time when a significantly prominent city of the world will be able to be destroyed in one hour, implying nuclear energy tech. Revelation 18:10 4. Prophecy of tech for global munber/mark monetary system. Revelation 13:16,17 with the power of global enforcement on the people of all nations. 5. Prophecy of tech for global enforcement of all nations to view a speaking image and worship the image. Our TVs and computers, et al make this possible with 2 way interaction via electronic media. Revelation 13:14,15 6. At a time when knowledge and travel will be greatly increased: Daniel 12:4. 7. At a time when, according to the prophecy of Jesus, the city of Jerusalem, after gentile occupation, will again be occupied by Jews. Luke 21:24 There's much more, including famine and drout, but my point is that all this evidence at the same time of natural disaster evidence lends to the good possibility that the natural disasters prophecies are indeed bonafide prophecy as the text claims. That all these prophecies are either being now fulfilled in a relatively short timespan or have recently been fulfilled lends credence to each of the individual prophecies. These prophecies which I've mentioned all are prophecies which the text from which they come, addresses what the prophets call the latter days, day of the Lord, end time, et al. Please note also that Mr. Robertson did not claim these natural disasters to be empirical evidence in themselves, but that they seem to be suggesting latter day prophecy fulfillment. The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw
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nator Member (Idle past 2160 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Right about what, exactly?
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nator Member (Idle past 2160 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: 1) Is it possible for any of you "biblicalists" to be wrong about the evidence you say you base your faith upon, or are you infallible? 2) If you are fallable, and therefore might be mistaken about the evidence you base your faith upon, does that mean that you will reject or change or lose your faith?
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Funkaloyd writes: Buz, even if it were shown that there has been no increase in natural disasters since 1948, would that change your mind regarding the end being near?Anyway, I seriously recommend that you read this. It's written by a Christian (and not exactly a liberal one). As I've stated, according to the prophecies, one absolutely necessary prophetic event to happen before one can state that the end time is near is the re-emergence of the nation of Israel and global focus on that region. That, after all, is where Jesus is prophesied to return and for the last big conflict of Armageddon to take place. So those who claimed the end time was near any time in history before 1948 simply didn't do their homework on the prophecies. If it could be shown that natural disasters were not on the increase, I'd simply enlarge the timeframe a few decades, but once Israel is in place, it shouldn't be too long, especially when, as I have shown, natural disasters overall are on the increase in both frequency and in destruction. Btw, fyi, What we are observing as to natural disasters is just the beginning of some much worse times ahead. Hang onto your hats, folks! It aintagona get better before it gets worse and as the prophet Isaiah put it, in the end, few men will be left upon the earth (relatively few) by the time Jesus returns. The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw
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PaulK Member Posts: 17815 Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
So which of these links natural disasters o a restoration of Judah (not Israel because the tribes of Israel are still missing).
Ezekiel 37-39 doesn't. Zechariah 14 doesn't Your misreadings of Revelations don't (As for destroying cities, ou can find examlpes in Old Testament times - Sodom and Gomorrah for a start ! No high tech needed !) Daniel 12 refers to the second century BC ! And we've gone over Luke 21 before as you know. And I know why you don't talk about the disasters mentioned there - that doesn't fit your supposed timescale - not when you read it in parallel with the other versions. So no, the only thing your post tells me is that you know that I'm right. You DON'T have a prophecy that predicts that an increase in natural disasters will follow the events of 1948.
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jar Member (Idle past 384 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
buz writes: 2. Prophecy of high tech where all nations of the world will be able to view an event in one spot on the planet. Revelation 11:9, Revelation 17:18:9. Well, Revelation 11:9 certainly doesn’t refer to high tech where all nations of the world will be able to view an event in one spot on the planet. It doesn’t have anything to do with that. Rev 11
9: And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. In fact, if you read all of Revelations 11 you find that it’s talking about event in one small town or region.
8: And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 9: And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. It’s yet another of those verses that seem to show that John was speaking about very local, very contemporary events and not prophecy at all.
buz writes: 3. Prophecy of a time when a significantly prominent city of the world will be able to be destroyed in one hour, implying nuclear energy tech. Revelation 18:10 Again, that’s simply a nonsense, laughable, attempt to twist and pervert what is actually written. There is no implication of nuclear tech or anything else. Nor does it refer to any given city, the field is wide open and should any city get destroyed, it could be used as proof of prophecy. Come on Buz, anything that general is not prophecy, it’s damn near guaranteed. Let’s look at this laughable example of what buz calls prophecy .
10: Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come. If someone were to actually read ALL of Revelations 18 they would get a totally different impression.
1: And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. 2: And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. 3: For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. 4: And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. 5: For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. 6: Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double. 7: How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow. 8: Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her. 9: And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning, 10: Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come. 11: And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more: 12: The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble, 13: And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men. 14: And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all. 15: The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing, 16: And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls! 17: For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off, 18: And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city! 19: And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate. 20: Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her. 21: And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all. 22: And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee; 23: And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived. 24: And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth. Note that long after Babylon was destroyed way back in verse 10, it’s being symbolized by the angel throwing a millstone into the sea to destroy it, not some nuclear holocaust. It’s symbols, not prophecy, but a political tract addressing Rome. Rome 1500 years ago. Not something in the future for those of us alive today, but rather in our ancient history. Buz, if you would like I’ll be happy to step through each one of your alleged prophecies but as you certainly know, not one of them will stand up to examination. So what it looks like is that you cannot show any increase in Natural Disaster and now you can't even find any prophecies to go along. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Funkaloyd Inactive Member |
buzsaw writes: ...didn't do their homework on the prophecies. Don't you think that maybe the thousands of eschatologist theologians that came before our time thought exactly the same thing?
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
PaulK writes: So which of these links natural disasters o a restoration of Judah (not Israel because the tribes of Israel are still missing).Ezekiel 37-39 doesn't. Chapter 37 says there will be one, not two kingdoms. So far the Jews are back and there is one nation/kingdom as the prophecy states. There have been people coming from many nations, including Ethiopia. I don't know which tribe/tribes they are. Yes, there's tribes missing, but with modern DNA tech, it may be possible to sort the others out soon. If not, when Jesus sets up that kingdom after the 2nd advent, he will likely do the sorting out. Revelation 7 prophesies that 144,000 Jew and Israelitish men, 12,000 from each tribe, who've not been married will be on Mt Zion, the Temple Mount when Jesus arrives, so there will likely be a way of locating and sorting out these folks. The Ethiopeans were black skinned, I understand, but identifiable. I believe they were called Jews. At any rate the city of Jerusalem is out of Gentile hands as Jesus's prophecy states, so that, imo can be regarded as corroborating evidence.
PaulK writes: Zechariah doesn't.Your misreadings of Revelations don't Again, that wasn't the stated purpose for citing my readings in Revelation. Even if you think the tribe factor fails, you still have the other corroborating evidence which I cited to refute.
PaulK writes: (As for destroying cities, ou can find examlpes in Old Testament times - Sodom and Gomorrah for a start ! No high tech needed !) But there's a difference. The text does not say Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by fire in one hour. To accomplish that, you need an extraordinary blast/explosion.
PaulK writes: Daniel 12 refers to the second century BC ! Read the text carefully, my friend. Go to Daniel 11:40 which reads, ....at the time of the end...... Then go to 12:1 which reads, At that time, so the time when the prophecy is to be fulfilled is clearly the end times in context. Chapter 12 also deals with the time of the resurrection of the dead, et al.
PaulK writes: My purpose in Luke 21 was to show that after a time of gentile occupation, Semites will again reoccupy the land, g-Gentiles out and specifically the city of Jerusalem is cited.
And we've gone over Luke 21 before as you know. And I know why you don't talk about the disasters mentioned there - that doesn't fit your supposed timescale - not when you read it in parallel with the other versions. PaulK writes: So no, the only thing your post tells me is that you know that I'm right. You DON'T have a prophecy that predicts that an increase in natural disasters will follow the events of 1948. I didn't expect you, PaulK, to be told anything. Your mind appears to be closed tight to the possibility of the a higher, more energetic form of intelligence in the universe, other than observed on earth, i.e, what we humankinds call the supernatural. But for the ones who really want to learn, there's evidence that the prophecies are being fulfilled, that a higher form of intelligence does exist and that the latter days prophesied via this intelligence may likely be emerging upon the scene. Each observer who looks at that evidence, at least now knows it's there and can make up their own minds as to whether it's significant. At least I've shown that Pat Robertson's statements as per the OP do make some sense, no matter how you interpret the evidence. Edited to add the rest of PaulK's message This message has been edited by buzsaw, 11-02-2005 01:00 AM The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Funkaloyd writes: Don't you think that maybe the thousands of eschatologist theologians that came before our time thought exactly the same thing? What they thought doesn't count. The only thing that counts is what does the prophecy texts say will be in place when the time is right. It clearly states that Israel will be no longer occupied by Gentiles and the other stuff. They had no basis for claiming the end times had arrived. The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw
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