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Author | Topic: The Fires of Hell Have Gone Out: No Eternal Torment | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
Rev 20:14 writes: And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. Hell here is 'Hades', the lake of fire isn't Gehenna. Hades is referenced several times in the Bible.
In Biblical Greek it is associated with Orcus, the infernal regions, a dark and dismal place in the very depths of the earth, the common receptacle of disembodied spirits. Usually Hades is just the abode of the wicked, Lu. 16:23, Rev. 20:13,14; a very uncomfortable place. TDNT. Source
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
Luke 16:23-28 writes: And in hell (Hades) he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Here we see Hades being a place of torment and flames. This message has been edited by Modulous, Mon, 31-October-2005 07:26 PM
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
That is a parable being told by Jesus. The parable is crafted to emphasize the point, not present facts. Are you saying that Jesus made up a firey underworld of torment to emphasize a point?
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
No. I'm saying that Jesus, the storyteller, is going to use whatever is familiar to his audience to make his point. So the people were familiar with a burning world of torment but Jesus was of the opinion that it didn't exist, yet he reinforced this false belief by pretty much discussing its existence in public?
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
Using your rationale, all good people will actually be in the bosom of Abraham. I don't think the man was that big! Not really. Using my rationale Lazarus was a good man and was raised by angels. During his time he received evil things but is now comforted. The bosom thing to me just speaks of being comforted by the Father of the Nation. The rich man received good things on earth but is now tormented.
But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. I can't see how one can see this in any way that doesn't indicate that good people who put up with a load of suffering on earth will have their rewards in heaven, and those that take their rewards on earth (serving mammon), will be tormented in Hades. AbE: Granted it might be the case that not all good people go to Abraham's Bosom. But I think, biblically, we can agree that Jesus believes that such an entity exists (and thus does exist). Did Jesus then decide to use an entity which does not exist (a flame ridden Hades) just to try and convert people? I don't think the 'but its just a parable' line works here. This message has been edited by Modulous, Tue, 01-November-2005 04:10 PM
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
Lazarus was not deemed good and the rich man was not deemed bad. Well the parable comes shortly after
Luke writes: No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. So one assumes that the rich man doesn't serve God, but mammon The rich man also says
And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. Indicating that they have something to repent for.
The lesson of the parable is about selfishness. Treat others the way you want to be treated. I agree, the parables lesson is about selfishness, the rich man used his money for his own comfort and neglected Lazarus. The selfless (Good) people who suffer on earth will have their rewards in heaven. The selfish servants of mammon who have their rewards on earth will be tormented in Hades.
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
Don't blend your stories. Each parable is separate. There is a parable: Luke 16:1-9Then there are some sayings. Then there is the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man. I don't have a problem with that, I can easily see they are seperate stories, but I'm sure you are capable of spotting a continuum between them.
The phrase before our parable is about divorce, but this parable isn't about that either. The saying on mammon has nothing to do with this parable. We are talking about faithfulness. Faithfulness to wives, faithfulness to God, faithfulness to ones self. One of the above is selfish; and lands you in torment.
So he is saying that if someone went to them from the dead they would change their ways. Why would they change their ways? Because they would realize they were sinning?
Nothing says that Lazarus was a good or selfless person. Nothing in the parable says the rich man served money. He just didn't use what he had to help Lazarus. Perhaps not. However, it does say that the rich man's brethren (who the rich man fears will join him (thus whatever they are doing he did)) do not take heed of Moses and the prophets. Taking heed of Moses et al (and subsequently repenting) is the way to avoid the torment. Thus: the rich man and his brethren did not take heed of Moses. This probably makes him a sinner. Still, these points are side points. The rich man still ended up in Hades suffering torment and fire.
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
But the parable is fiction and still not a teaching of eternal torment. So I ask again: Why did Jesus lend strength to something he knew was false?
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
So you don't think that Jesus, the Mesiah, King of the Jews, Saviour of Man, publically telling a bunch of people that a man went to Hades where there was torment and fire, is lending credence to the concept of Hades where there is torment and fire?
Given that we are having this conversation I think the evidence is in favour of my position.
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
So you don't think that Jesus, the Mesiah, King of the Jews, Saviour of Man, publically telling a bunch of people that a man went to Hades where there was torment and fire, is lending credence to the concept of Hades where there is torment and fire?
You are arguing from doctrine rather than scripture. Doctrine dilutes depending on need.
Perhaps you weren't following the debate? I was arguing from Luke 16:19+ where the rich man goes to Hades where there is torment and fire.
quote: I know very well about the valley of Hinnom, but I am still arguing from Scripture.
10 times from "Hades", which means the grave This confuses me though. The standard meaning of Hades in Greek means the underworld, in its original use it referred to the realm ruled by the god of the same name and protected by the three headed dog Cerberus (or Kerberos if you're Bill Gates).
1 time from "Tartarus", which means a place of darkness Tartarus, in Greek mythology is either part of Hades, or below Hades depending. It is where the punishments fit the crime, the place where wicked people go (as opposed to Elysium/Heaven). This message has been edited by Modulous, Mon, 08-May-2006 12:07 PM
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
And? In what way does that negate that the fire will devour and in so doing, does its job? Was I attempting to negate that? I was merely showing that Hades is presented as a place of fire and torment, as per Revelations which describes it as a lake of fire. This was to show that Gehenna is not the only reference to a post-death fiery end - so the conclusion that the fires of hell have gone out is possibly premature. The rich man burned, not in Gehenna, but in Hades.
Aside from that, Lazarus' bosom is NOT the home of the saved. This parable is a parable..........but not to show the eternal singing of human butts. Right, thet parable was to show that after death you get what's coming. If you suffered in life like Lazarus, you will be comforted. If you were comfortable like the rich man, you will suffer in Hades. As I said before, why would Jesus make up a punishment in this parable rather than just stating what the nature of the post-life suffering will be? It would seem that Jesus is giving credence to a concept that He doesn't believe in.
Manchester, England, England. Birth place of Sir Peter Maxwell Davies, a fine composer of modern classical music. A fine place, filled with fine folk. Plenty of unfine folk here too though This message has been edited by Modulous, Mon, 08-May-2006 04:40 PM
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
Since this has been revived I've had a chance for a fresh look. I still don't think the parable was dealing with eternal torment, but did notice something else. I haven't really addressed whether or not eternal torment exists, just whether or not the fires of hell are still burning.
Hades by reputation is split into two places supposedly, a side for the good (Bosom of Abraham) and the side for the wicked, which supposedly has fire. Let's say people go to Hades after death as described in the parable. I noticed that Revelation does not describe Hades as a lake of fire. As I said is Message 164, Hades was traditionally split into two parts Tartarus and Elysium. This has been transformed into Hell and Paradise/Heaven.
Hades and Death are thrown into the lake of fire. Indeed - which, assuming Revelation is a future event, would indicate two things. 1) Hades still exists (and Jesus described it in a fiery way)2) A lake of fire still exists While the term Gehenna can be connected with the Valley of Hinnom can it really be connected with the lake of fire other than by tradition? Personally, I think the concept of a fiery hell was adapted from the imagery at Hinnom. Unfortunately it isn't something which I can demonstrate.
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
The King James Version translated Gehenna and Hades into the Old English word “hell”...It carries the meaning of concealed or buried, to cover. So it is not a good translation for Gehenna. The word “hell” has nothing to do with fire. The Latin equivalent is celare which we see is not the word that was translated from the Latin Bible. The question is not what the word Hell means in Old English, but what did it mean to Early Modern English readers? I don't see what significance its old English meaning has. Luke 16:23 in Old English (just for fun):
quote: As I showed in my OP, Gehenna is no longer burning. Hades is the underworld, Gehanna is not. The hell in my Bible is no longer burning. If Hell=the Valley of Hinnom, then I agree, it is long extinguished. However, that doesn't mean that there is no fiery underworld for the wicked, since Hades - described as an underworld of torment/flame - still exists unless the Revelation has come to pass. Once revelation comes about, those not in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire.
I can’t find the Greek rendition of Hades, but the Latin is infernum which means lower, under; underground, of the lower regions. αδμς Hades - it refers to the underworld where the dead go, traditionally divided as previously agreed.
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