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Author Topic:   Thou Shalts and Thou Shalnts
Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 4624 days)
Posts: 708
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 196 of 204 (255452)
10-29-2005 2:53 AM
Reply to: Message 189 by iano
10-28-2005 6:27 AM


Re: A General Reply
iano writes:

I agree except for ultimate purpose. Given this progress, lets see how far we agree here.

ok...let's see

iano writes:

The law was set forth to point the way to salvation (or "the law is a schoolteacher to lead us to Christ" as Galatians 3:24 puts the actual purpose a few verses on from your Galations quote).

ok. I did quote that already.

iano writes:

Schoolteacher? Discipline, education, authority, guidance. This is the law and it has a purpose like you say - to lead us to the way of salvation. The law itself doesn't save, it just points the way to the way of salvation.

ok...points to Christ.

iano writes:

Salvation: saved from something. In order to be saved from something, someone has to be in danger of something else. The law, being a school teacher, an educator, is going to lead a person to the means of salvation by education/discipline/authority. It is going to teach and expose person to the the very great danger they are in.

ok...points out the dangers.

But do we have to beat people over the head with it to the point that the law itself ends up being more dangerous than the dangers that the law itself is trying to protect us against?

Proverbs 13:24 says, "He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is careful to discipline him."

Some think this passage means that one should literally beat their son with a heavy metal rod in order to discipline him.

Other think this reference to a rod is more spoken in a metaphorical sense, implying a standard of measure that one should compare themselves too.

Which view do you think is intended by this passage -- or is there another way of interpreting it that makes more sense?

iano writes:

And what possible danger can it be other than the fact that lawbreakers will be condemned under law.

The exact opposite danger of thinking that one has lived up to the full measure of the law without God -- the sin of pride and vanity which the adversary himself fell prey too -- THE VERY SIN WHICH CAUSED ALL OTHER SIN TO SPRING FORTH.

iano writes:

The lesson that needs to be learned is a) the law sets an impossibly high standard b) no one can keep the standard c) the law cannot be set aside d) lawbreakers will be condemned.

And yet the exact opposite message can be read as well -- a) the law can only be fulfilled by God b) Only God can keep the standard c) he who loves his fellowman is moved by God to fulfill the law d) those who love much will be forgiven by God.

iano writes:

Condemnation is guaranteed for everyone who is under the reign and influence of the law.

And yet the Scriptures say, "Where there is no law there is no transgression."

They also say, "Sin is not taken into account when there is no law."

And Galatians quite plainly states, "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law."

Do you not know non-Christians who have expressed genuine love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control?

If they have these things, are they not manifesting the fruit of the Spirit?

iano writes:

But there is nothing wrong with the law. The law is good. And the law itself cannot be set aside or ignored.

Yes it can -- the law can be set aside -- and the Scriptures quite plainly state this.

NIV writes:

Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned —- for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law.

iano writes:

That wouldn't be just.

Is it just to hold someone accountable to God's will even though they apparently don't know God's will?

That doesn't sound like justice to me.

iano writes:

In order to be saved from being condemned by it something dramatic has got to happen. The person must be removed to a position safe from the law. Somewhere where the law cannot touch them. Out from under law and into Christ.

Unless, of course, Christ was active in them all along -- and we just didn't know it.

Proverbs 19:17 says, "He who is kind to the poor lends to the LORD, and he will reward him for what he has done."

Apparently this person's reward, if they don't know Christ, is a less hot place in hell.

My point is that if someone is genuinely kind as God defines kind, then they do know Christ's actions even if they don't know Christ's name.

Besides that, Christ comes to us in many ways that we might not immeadiately recognize.

For example:

NIV writes:

"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

iano writes:

The ultimate purpose of the law?

The only way the law can point the way to Christ is to condemn you. It can do no other thing. And if a person is shown that this is their state then they can only do one thing. Cry out for mercy.

See, I kind of do agree with you here...kind of.

If we look at some of the laws we see things such as...

LAW writes:


Do not murder
Do not steal
Do not lie

It can be summarized with the phrase, "Hate the sin."

However, if we look at some of the gospel we see things such as...

Gospel writes:


Bring forth life
Give to others
Tell the truth

It can be summarized with the phrase, "Love the sinner."

This isn't to say that we doing these things earn our way into heaven. Rather, when we do these things in true fashion according to God's will, we are manifesting God's glory -- showing that we are moving according to the Holy Spirit.

iano writes:


What could be a more noble, worthwhile and important purpose for the law other than to be a mechanism of salvation of people God loves so much.

The most noble, worthwhile and important purpose for the law could be to learn how to love your enemies -- and be willing to die for those who hate you if you believe that your death will result in their salvation.

iano writes:

For the life of me I can't think of one

Then think outside the box a little bit.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by iano, posted 10-28-2005 6:27 AM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by iano, posted 11-01-2005 7:35 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has not yet responded

    
iano
Member (Idle past 16 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 197 of 204 (255951)
11-01-2005 7:35 AM
Reply to: Message 196 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
10-29-2005 2:53 AM


Re: A General Reply
iano writes:

Salvation: saved from something. In order to be saved from something, someone has to be in danger of something else. The law, being a school teacher, an educator, is going to lead a person to the means of salvation by education/discipline/authority. It is going to teach and expose person to the the very great danger they are in.

mrx writes:

ok...points out the dangers. But do we have to beat people over the head with it to the point that the law itself ends up being more dangerous than the dangers that the law itself is trying to protect us against?

How could the law become dangerous in a way other than the most danger it represents : eternal damnation for those judged according to it?

mrx writes:

The exact opposite danger of thinking that one has lived up to the full measure of the law without God -- the sin of pride and vanity which the adversary himself fell prey too -- THE VERY SIN WHICH CAUSED ALL OTHER SIN TO SPRING FORTH.

This is a valid subset of the total. One could mistakenly believe they can live up to the law and if the law convinced them that they can't, it would be a good thing. They might just rest there with "I can't" Or they might be caused to wonder further: "But the law says I am subject to its judgment if I am under it - and not fulfilling it doesn't change that fact it ony magnifies the danger...." The first realisation in itself doesn't bring the full measure of danger. It is only a partial realisation. The second realisation exposes the full danger. Judgement according to law for all those under law

And yet the exact opposite message can be read as well -- a) the law can only be fulfilled by God b) Only God can keep the standard c) he who loves his fellowman is moved by God to fulfill the law d) those who love much will be forgiven by God.

"Moved by God to fulfill the law". Moved by his Spirit presumably. But only Christians are described as having an indwelling of Gods Spirit. It is to them that phrases such as "by the Spirit" apply. Not to everyone. But people who have the Spirits indwelling are only those who are in Christ (which I think is the best definition of a Christian). And there is no condemnation for those in Christ. So lack of fulfillment of law is not condemnatory. For a Christian is no longer under law, will no longer be judged by the law, is freed from the law of sin and death (which is all the law brings)

mrx writes:

And yet the Scriptures say, "Where there is no law there is no transgression." They also say, "Sin is not taken into account when there is no law."

But the no law times ended with Moses. What happened before then is hardly of concern to us - who live in a time when there is law and is sin to be taken into account. That is the more relevant area to discuss I suppose

mrx writes:

And Galatians quite plainly states, "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law."

Galatians is addressed to Christians (all Christians) - who are the only ones who have the Spirit and thus the only ones who are in a position to "express fruits of the Spirit". Romans 6:

18 "Being made free from sin ye (Christians) became servants of righteousness"

20 "For when ye (Christians) were (before you were Christians)servants of sin, ye ( as non-Christians) were free of righteousness."

21: "What fruit had ye (as non-Christians) then in those things whereof ye are now (as Christians) ashamed? For the end of those things is death"

22: "But now being made free from sin and become servants to God (and from above: servants to righteousness, captives to righteouness) ye (Christians) have your fruit unto holiness (described above in Galatians) and the end, everlasting life"

mrx writes:

Do you not know non-Christians who have expressed genuine love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control? If they have these things, are they not manifesting the fruit of the Spirit?

I do know such people. But such things is not expression of fruits of the Spirit. Whilst it appears eminently logical to make the connection it is the biblical case that those who haven't got the Spirit cannot manifest fruit of the Spirit.

A Nazi can fight with bravery, patriotism, skill and purpose - in the same measure as a US marine. It is not these things that count primarily, it is the side on which you are when you express these things that matters ultimately. One is fruit from righteousness, the other fruit from unrighteousness. As far as God is concerned "They that are in the flesh (non-Christians) CANNOT please God" "All your (non-Christian) righteousness are as filthy rags" Oh dear...

"But now a righteousness FROM GOD is revealed, apart from the law, which is by faith from first to last"

A person who has the Spirit may be 'worse' in world terms than the person who hasn't. He may be quite reprehensible in fact. No matter, it is not the quantity of "Spirit-expression" that matters in terms of salvation, it is being in Christ at which point you are given possession of the Spirit - so that you can express fruit at all. You may be a shabby citizen of heaven, worse in world terms that the person who is not. But it is citizenship that counts not behaviour, in the first instance. Get the citizenship first - then worry about being a good citizen.

This message has been edited by iano, 01-Nov-2005 12:39 PM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-29-2005 2:53 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by jar, posted 11-01-2005 10:50 AM iano has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 198 of 204 (256001)
11-01-2005 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 197 by iano
11-01-2005 7:35 AM


Re: A General Reply
How do you explain Romans 2:12-15? It looks like Paul seems to believe that the key is behavior and that in many cases it comes from the peoples own nature.

12: For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13: (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14: For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

Again there is no mention here that the gentiles being discussed are moved by some external force, by the Spirit, or that they are Christians or have ever heard the Gospel. Infact it seems to be comparing most favorably the behavior of those outside the current community to those who are within.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by iano, posted 11-01-2005 7:35 AM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by iano, posted 11-01-2005 12:33 PM jar has not yet responded
 Message 200 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 11-02-2005 3:26 AM jar has not yet responded

  
iano
Member (Idle past 16 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 199 of 204 (256024)
11-01-2005 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by jar
11-01-2005 10:50 AM


Re: A General Reply
You know, the more I look at it Jar, the more command I see throughout. "Obey", "do", "follow" etc, etc. Here is no different. "It is not the hearers it is the doers" More absolute statements without a hint of try in it. Tomorrow you, like me, will be a person who doesn't do. And the day after and the day after that.

"Do" is everywhere. "Try to do" is nowhere. But you (and others) say "try to do". This thread gives the triers a chance to make a biblically backed up case of their stance.

The sequence:

"Do or else..." is biblical
"But I cannot do..." is biblical
"thus it must be try to do" is not biblical

So it must be something else. And lets face it. Given the above two biblical truths we sure could do with some good news....


This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by jar, posted 11-01-2005 10:50 AM jar has not yet responded

  
Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 4624 days)
Posts: 708
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 200 of 204 (256124)
11-02-2005 3:26 AM
Reply to: Message 198 by jar
11-01-2005 10:50 AM


Re: A General Reply
jar writes:

Again there is no mention here that the gentiles being discussed are moved by some external force, by the Spirit, or that they are Christians or have ever heard the Gospel.

I tend to agree with you, but just one reminder:

Paul does explain some things in the preceeding chapter:

NIV Romans 1:18-20 writes:

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities —- his eternal power and divine nature -— have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

If God's invisible qualities -- his eternal power and divine nature -- are not references to his Spirit, then I'm not sure what else it could be refering to.

My point is that the Spirit's motion does not seem to be limited to Christians as iano seems to be claiming.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by jar, posted 11-01-2005 10:50 AM jar has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by iano, posted 11-02-2005 8:38 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has responded

    
iano
Member (Idle past 16 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 201 of 204 (256158)
11-02-2005 8:38 AM
Reply to: Message 200 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
11-02-2005 3:26 AM


Re: A General Reply
Romans 1:18-20
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. (Paul explaining why God is just in taking the action he takes) For (he continues....) since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities; his eternal power and divine nature (which are indeed invisible) have been clearly seen, (how...?) being understood from what has been made (what has been made? Take a look out the window) so that men are without excuse.

mrx writes:

If God's invisible qualities -- his eternal power and divine nature -- are not references to his Spirit, then I'm not sure what else it could be refering to.

Paul is saying that creation itself is proof enough that God exists.

This message has been edited by iano, 02-Nov-2005 01:39 PM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 11-02-2005 3:26 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 11-02-2005 12:56 PM iano has responded

  
Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 4624 days)
Posts: 708
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 202 of 204 (256257)
11-02-2005 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 201 by iano
11-02-2005 8:38 AM


Re: A General Reply
There's more to it than that, but I don't feel like arguing about it here in this thread.

For the record, however, jar noted a good thought above when he said:

jar writes:

How do you explain Romans 2:12-15? It looks like Paul seems to believe that the key is behavior and that in many cases it comes from the peoples own nature.

If creation itself is proof enough that God exists, does this not mean that people's actions are proof enough that God exists?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by iano, posted 11-02-2005 8:38 AM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by iano, posted 11-02-2005 1:07 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has responded

    
iano
Member (Idle past 16 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 203 of 204 (256259)
11-02-2005 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 202 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
11-02-2005 12:56 PM


Re: A General Reply
mrx writes:

For the record, however, jar noted a good thought above when he said:

Jar writes:

How do you explain Romans 2:12-15? It looks like Paul seems to believe that the key is behavior and that in many cases it comes from the peoples own nature.

This passage comes up in the 'trying' thread. Pick a verse in isolation and the bible can mean anything you want it to mean. Like I'm surprised "Faith without works is dead" hasn't come up yet

mrx writes:

If creation itself is proof enough that God exists, does this not mean that people's actions are proof enough that God exists?

Are peoples actions created? I wouldn't think so. To play it safe I'd say it would be the things that the bible says are made: the universe, plants and animals, us


This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 11-02-2005 12:56 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 11-03-2005 2:18 AM iano has not yet responded

  
Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 4624 days)
Posts: 708
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 204 of 204 (256412)
11-03-2005 2:18 AM
Reply to: Message 203 by iano
11-02-2005 1:07 PM


Re: A General Reply
I've responded to this in the "trying thread".

I'm quite sure that jar is very capable of defening his own thoughts regarding the aspects of trying.

See you in the other thread iano. ;)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by iano, posted 11-02-2005 1:07 PM iano has not yet responded

    
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