Thou Shalts and Thou Shalnts

....gone.

I agree except for ultimate purpose. Given this progress, lets see how far we agree here.The law was set forth to point the way to salvation (or "the law is a schoolteacher to lead us to Christ" as Galatians 3:24 puts the actual purpose a few verses on from your Galations quote).Schoolteacher? Discipline, education, authority, guidance. This is the law and it has a purpose like you say - to lead us to the way of salvation. The law itself doesn't save, it just points the way to the way of salvation.Salvation: saved from something. In order to be saved from something, someone has to be in danger of something else. The law, being a school teacher, an educator, is going to lead a person to the means of salvation by education/discipline/authority. It is going to teach and expose person to the the very great danger they are in.And what possible danger can it be other than the fact that lawbreakers will be condemned under law. The lesson that needs to be learned is a) the law sets an impossibly high standard b) no one can keep the standard c) the law cannot be set aside d) lawbreakers will be condemned. Condemnation is guaranteed for everyone who is under the reign and influence of the law.But there is nothing wrong with the law. The law is good. And the law itself cannot be set aside or ignored. That wouldn't be just. In order to be saved from being condemned by it something dramatic has got to happen. The person must be removed to a position safe from the law. Somewhere where the law cannot touch them. Out from under law and into ChristThe ultimate purpose of the law?
The only way the law can point the way to Christ is to condemn you. It can do no other thing. And if a person is shown that this is their state then they can only do one thing. Cry out for mercy.What could be a more noble, worthwhile and important purpose for the law other than to be a mechanism of salvation of people God loves so much.For the life of me I can't think of one

How could the law become dangerous in a way other than the most danger it represents : eternal damnation for those judged according to it? This is a valid subset of the total. One could mistakenly believe they can live up to the law and if the law convinced them that they can't, it would be a good thing. They might just rest there with "I can't" Or they might be caused to wonder further: "But the law says I am subject to its judgment if I am under it - and not fulfilling it doesn't change that fact it ony magnifies the danger...." The first realisation in itself doesn't bring the full measure of danger. It is only a partial realisation. The second realisation exposes the full danger. Judgement according to law for all those under law "Moved by God to fulfill the law". Moved by his Spirit presumably. But only Christians are described as having an indwelling of Gods Spirit. It is to them that phrases such as "by the Spirit" apply. Not to everyone. But people who have the Spirits indwelling are only those who are in Christ (which I think is the best definition of a Christian). And there is no condemnation for those in Christ. So lack of fulfillment of law is not condemnatory. For a Christian is no longer under law, will no longer be judged by the law, is freed from the law of sin and death (which is all the law brings) But the no law times ended with Moses. What happened before then is hardly of concern to us - who live in a time when there is law and is sin to be taken into account. That is the more relevant area to discuss I suppose Galatians is addressed to Christians (all Christians) - who are the only ones who have the Spirit and thus the only ones who are in a position to "express fruits of the Spirit". Romans 6:18 "Being made free from sin ye (Christians) became servants of righteousness"20 "For when ye (Christians) were (before you were Christians)servants of sin, ye ( as non-Christians) were free of righteousness."21: "What fruit had ye (as non-Christians) then in those things whereof ye are now (as Christians) ashamed? For the end of those things is death"22: "But now being made free from sin and become servants to God (and from above: servants to righteousness, captives to righteouness) ye (Christians) have your fruit unto holiness (described above in Galatians) and the end, everlasting life" I do know such people. But such things is not expression of fruits of the Spirit. Whilst it appears eminently logical to make the connection it is the biblical case that those who haven't got the Spirit cannot manifest fruit of the Spirit.A Nazi can fight with bravery, patriotism, skill and purpose - in the same measure as a US marine. It is not these things that count primarily, it is the side on which you are when you express these things that matters ultimately. One is fruit from righteousness, the other fruit from unrighteousness. As far as God is concerned "They that are in the flesh (non-Christians) CANNOT please God" "All your (non-Christian) righteousness are as filthy rags" Oh dear..."But now a righteousness FROM GOD is revealed, apart from the law, which is by faith from first to last"A person who has the Spirit may be 'worse' in world terms than the person who hasn't. He may be quite reprehensible in fact. No matter, it is not the quantity of "Spirit-expression" that matters in terms of salvation, it is being in Christ at which point you are given possession of the Spirit - so that you can express fruit at all. You may be a shabby citizen of heaven, worse in world terms that the person who is not. But it is citizenship that counts not behaviour, in the first instance. Get the citizenship first - then worry about being a good citizen.This message has been edited by iano, 01-Nov-2005 12:39 PM

You know, the more I look at it Jar, the more command I see throughout. "Obey", "do", "follow" etc, etc. Here is no different. "It is not the hearers it is the doers" More absolute statements without a hint of try in it. Tomorrow you, like me, will be a person who doesn't do. And the day after and the day after that."Do" is everywhere. "Try to do" is nowhere. But you (and others) say "try to do". This thread gives the triers a chance to make a biblically backed up case of their stance.The sequence:"Do or else..." is biblical
"But I cannot do..." is biblical
"thus it must be try to do" is not biblicalSo it must be something else. And lets face it. Given the above two biblical truths we sure could do with some good news....

Paul is saying that creation itself is proof enough that God exists.This message has been edited by iano, 02-Nov-2005 01:39 PM

This passage comes up in the 'trying' thread. Pick a verse in isolation and the bible can mean anything you want it to mean. Like I'm surprised "Faith without works is dead" hasn't come up yet Are peoples actions created? I wouldn't think so. To play it safe I'd say it would be the things that the bible says are made: the universe, plants and animals, us