What I have noticed about these debates...

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Originally posted by schrafinator:

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I don't believe that one can conclude from this that in the general population those who accept Creationism are in general less informed about science than those who accept evoution, because this is just one little bit of evidence. You'd need more evidence from broader sources to reach the more general conclusion.

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--Percy

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Hey Percy!

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How is this for some evidence?

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The "Yes But" problem

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It pretty clearly correlates level of education with the liklihood of disbelief of evolution; the less education one has, the more likely it is that you disbelieve evolution, AND the more likely it is that you do believe that God created the Earth and everything in it 10,000 years ago.

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Cool link schrafinator...I had seen some of the individual polls but not the various polls combined.[Fixed quoting. --Admin][This message has been edited by Admin, 12-05-2002]

None of the people on your list who are dead, which are most of them, count, because they can't have evaluated the 100 or so years of evidence-gathering that has gone on since theiy departed the scene.Chandra Wickramasinghe is not a Creationist.There was a court case in which he was called to sestify about evolution...From the court proceedings transcript:McLean v. Arkansas Board of Education"The Court is at a loss to understand why Dr. Wickramasinghe was called in behalf of the defendants. Perhaps it was because he was generally critical of the theory of evolution and the scientific community, a tactic consistent with the strategy of the defense. Unfortunately for the defense, he demonstrated that the simplistic approach of the two model analysis of the origins of life is false. Furthermore, he corroborated the plaintiffs' witnesses by concluding that "no rational scientist" would believe the earth's geology could be explained by reference to a worldwide flood or that the earth was less than one million years old."

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Originally posted by Mammuthus:

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Originally posted by schrafinator:

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I don't believe that one can conclude from this that in the general population those who accept Creationism are in general less informed about science than those who accept evoution, because this is just one little bit of evidence. You'd need more evidence from broader sources to reach the more general conclusion.

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--Percy

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Hey Percy!

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How is this for some evidence?

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The "Yes But" problem

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It pretty clearly correlates level of education with the liklihood of disbelief of evolution; the less education one has, the more likely it is that you disbelieve evolution, AND the more likely it is that you do believe that God created the Earth and everything in it 10,000 years ago.

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Cool link schrafinator...I had seen some of the individual polls but not the various polls combined.

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Thanks! It's been very useful. [Fixed quoting. --Admin][This message has been edited by Admin, 12-05-2002]

Are these the stats you were referring to? I had to poke around the site a bit before finding them at Beliefs of the U.S. public about evolution and creation:

Belief system	Creationist view	Theistic evolution	Naturalistic Evolution
Group of adults	God created man pretty much in his present form at one time within the last 10,000 years.	Man has developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but God guided this process, including man's creation.	Man has developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life. God had no part in this process.
Everyone	47%	40%	9%
Men	39%	45%	11.5%
Women	53%	36%	6.6%
College graduates	25%	54%	16.5%
No high school diploma	65%	23%	4.6%
Income over $50,000	29%	50%	17%
Income under $20,000	59%	28%	6.5%
Caucasians	46%	40%	9%
Afro-Americans	53%	41%	4%

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1997-NOV data is little changed. Note the massive differences between the beliefs of the general population and of scientists:

Belief system	Creationist view	Theistic evolution	Naturalistic Evolution
Group of adults	God created man pretty much in his present form at one time within the last 10,000 years.	Man has developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but God guided this process, including man's creation.	Man has developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life. God had no part in this process.
Everyone	44%	39%	10%
Scientists	5%	40%	55%

If one assumes that increased education correlates with increased knowledge, then this information appears to indicate that the less you know the more likely you are to accept Creationism.While I have no sources in front of me, my recollection is that similar correlations have been found between educational levels and the acceptance of other forms of pseudo-science like mind-reading, UFOs, communication with the dead, etc.--Percy

Another interesting trend identified in the data at that site is how the US contrasts with other countries. For example, 35% of US accept evolution compared with 66% in New Zealand, 76% in Great Britain, 65% in Italy and 61% in Philippines.The full table is at Comparing Christian beliefs in U.S. with those of other countriesUnfortunately the figure for Australia isn't included but I suspect it would fall within the New Zealand - Great Britain range.Doesn't it seem strange that the US shares such low acceptance of evolution with such countries as Poland and Russia?

wj,Interestingly, GB & East Germany (showing the studies age) have the highest % acceptance of evolution AND at the same time the lowest % belief in the bible. Yet the correlation to a belief in God doesn't seem to follow. It's the bible & evolution, not religion & evolution that appear to be the oil & water, a gross generalisation I confess. Check Russia & the Phillipines, for example.Mark------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

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If they are, were they on the Ark? If so then which cow had the "mad cow" disease?

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No, they were in cold storage below decks.

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Other than Behe, are there any creationist "scientists" that even have a background in sceintific fields remotely related to evolution?

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Morris was a geologist, Gish was a biochemist (and an Ivy League grad if I remember correctly) and Gentry is a physicist.

Mark, I suppose it's not surprising that there seems to be a negative correlation between bible (The Bible is the actual word of God and it is to be taken literally, word for word) and evolution (Human beings developed from earlier species of animals). The former view is most characteristic of yecs who are the most dramatically opposed to evolution. The figures for belief in god, afterlife etc. would likely include a significant number of theists who would not necessarily reject evolution.Isn't it interesting that Americans aren't as god-fearing or bible-loving as Filipinos but are stronger in their rejection of evolution.

Don't forget Jonathan Wells - PhD's in Biology and Theology, both from very good schools. I'm also pretty sure Michael Denton had a biology or biology-related degree (of course, that's why he's completely recanted "Theory in Crisis").

From "Old Earth Creationism"
http://EvC Forum: Old Earth Creationism -->EvC Forum: Old Earth Creationism :

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I'm pretty sure Kurt Wise is strongly YEC based solely on faith, and he freely admits that evidence for his belief is lacking (that's why its called faith).

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Kurt Wise, PhD, Paleontology, Harvard.Studied under Stephan Jay Gould.Apparently a creationist, and a scientist, but not a "creation scientist".Hope I got that right.Moose

Hi Percy,
That about sums up my point. It is also similar to the data in the link schrafinator posted.Moose, Quetzal, and wj posted 3 examples of creationist scientists but again, from the statistics, the 3 are a minority. I still think it is expected that those accepting evolution in general are better educated in or at least more active in learning about science and that it is not an artifact of forums like EvC.cheers,
M

PercyOne thing that that hasn't been taken into account is asking people who are about to get a science degree. Could it be that people doing that already think naturalistically more then the average? Of course.I still admitt that more education tends to increase eovluitonary thinking but but not to the extent that you think (due to my first sentence) and not for the reason you suspect. It is becasue most universities teach evoluttion only and ridicule creation of course!

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Originally posted by Tranquility Base:
Percy

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One thing that that hasn't been taken into account is asking people who are about to get a science degree. Could it be that people doing that already think naturalistically more then the average? Of course.

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I still admitt that more education tends to increase eovluitonary thinking but but not to the extent that you think (due to my first sentence) and not for the reason you suspect. It is becasue most universities teach evoluttion only and ridicule creation of course!

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***************+Hi TB,
I have never taken or heard of a university course on evolution that ridicules creation...creationism is not discussed since it is not science. How often do you hear discussions on evolutionary biology in church? Note: I have not been to church in a really really long time so maybe things have changed cheers
M

Direct ridiculing is pretty rare in universities I agree but I've seen it and definitely in research seminars.