The Fires of Hell Have Gone Out: No Eternal Torment

You obviously ain't been paying attention at the back there nwr. Which part of "But now a righteousness from God is revealed which is by faith from first to last" do you not understand?

I understand. Was helping out on a course once up at my church. It was a kind of intro to the gospel kind of thing. For 'seekers' as they are known in the trade.One chap piped up in the group with what I, in my new-born state, thought was a killer question:"I know there is a spiritual dimension - you don't have to convince me of that. But I'm riding around this spiritual roundabout and there are dozens of potential exits. Everyone is saying "Take this exit - this is the right one". But how am I to know from my position on the roundabout. Can you answer me that?"Silence. The seconds ticked by. Miriam spoke..."If you examine every religion in the world you will find that they all have a central thing in common. And that is that your position before God is somehow dependant on what YOU do: meditate, seek enlightenment, pray, do good deeds, etc, etc. The difference between Christianity and all the rest (including Christian-sounding heresy) is that your position before God is not dependant on what YOU do ...but on what God has done FOR you"There is a huge clamour here nwr. I see it myself. And the arguement seems to delve into the minutae: folk throwing in what the original Greek means and all that. Patently, one cannot be argued intellectually into the kingdom. Luckily one doesn't have to be.The best person to go to in order to get clear direction is God. Forget all this debate. Pick up the bible. John is a good place to start as any. Small pieces at a time. A passage at max (whats contained under a heading - if your bible has headings - otherwise 10 verses at a time. Consider what you reckon yourself it it trying to tell youBut most of all. Ask God to help. It doesn't matter that you don't believe. He doesn't expect you to believe what you cannot. Just ask him. He wants you to after allGod bless...This message has been edited by iano, 01-Nov-2005 07:51 PM

How long does the process of being destroyed last? 1 second. 0.0000001 second. If it lasts, does that not pre-suppose a concept of eternity which imagines it to be "time elapsing forever". 1 second after the other.From whence the idea that eternity is time elapsing?We know this much. God resides in eternity and an attribute of that is that (elapsing) time as we know it is (perpetually) present to him. He can see our (future) tomorrow as clearly as he (and we can) see our (present)today. Why would eternity (when we get there) not be perpetually present to us too? If I am destroyed, then I am perpetually destroyed. No before destruction, no after destruction. Just perpetual destruction."Exist > Cease to exist" presupposes a before state and an after state. But that is a concept locked in a time environment.

Seconded.Although Hell hath no (righteous) fury like a women (of faith) scorned... it must be said.[AbE] Like, you're by no means an uninformative read yourself. My Hero(ine)This message has been edited by iano, 06-May-2006 11:27 PM

Ambiguous? I drop in on yourself and Jay from time to time and find myself trawling backwards and forward from point of entry - with interest/man-sized awe. It may be that we three will be neighbours on 1175/6/7 Cardboard Box Terrace, Way of the Righteous, Heaven.I've no clue, but if I served Him that much I would be more than eternally content.

No 1. Satanic court, Boulevard of the Damned, Hell... is is for me then. Thank God for final assurance...{AbE} Now that you mention it JW, I realise that I don't live by good intentions anymore. I answered out of reflex. Old man reflex.Sheesh.. I'm still a sinner granted, but I haven't actually thought "good intentions" as a way of living since I don't know when. Gee...This message has been edited by iano, 07-May-2006 01:21 AM

Position in heaven by (your measurement of )works. Sound ropey?

Bump msg 67 in case it gets lost in your "yes" box PurpleDawn. No rush am heading for bed.

In essence?.......
The word "eternal" has been bandied about alot and I was wondering whether you, as thread originator, had some working-definition of same?You seem to (in your OP and subsequent argument) assume a before/after, time-elapsing version of eternity without supplying any reason why one should suppose it to be so.

A certain bush springs to mind.

A very good point. It reveals something of the physics of the environment of hell. If people are not the fuel then the fire has no reason to go out. A piece of steel can sit in flames and not be consumed. It will go red hot though..

Don't stretch an earthly methphor too far. We cannot have fire without the fuel being consumed on earth. Metaphor is "like" not "same"A person can consumed with lust and still be a personA marriage can be destroyed by one committing adultery yet remain a marriage.A bush in flames but not consumed. God, the eternal flame. If he can do it with a bush he can do it with a person

Which presupposes the fuel will run out. Start a fire and chuck on a finite amount of fuel. It will burn for as long as the fuel lasts. Now if the fuel burns quickly the fire will go out quickly, if it burns slowly it will last longer. Slower and slower and slower and slower and slower and slower....Are you familiar with the concept of infinity Ringo?

I said a finite amount of fuel = finite amount of people. I was making the point that this.. Is true. But we have no reason to suppose a finite amount of fuel will ever burn out. Infinitiy means you can count forever. Just like eternity goes on "forever and ever". Implying forever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever...The slower, the slower, the slower, the slowerA fire which can go out but only at some point forever in the future.In the meantime... punishment.

Well spotted JW (JW? Oops sorry!). There are some who are notorius for it. PD isn't usually