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Author Topic:   The Fires of Hell Have Gone Out: No Eternal Torment
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 46 of 300 (256035)
11-01-2005 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Modulous
11-01-2005 11:56 AM


Re: Back the Truck Up!
Don't blend your stories. Each parable is separate.
There is a parable: Luke 16:1-9
Then there are some sayings.
Then there is the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man.
The phrase before our parable is about divorce, but this parable isn't about that either. The saying on mammon has nothing to do with this parable.
Repenting is nothing more than changing one's mind for the better. So he is saying that if someone went to them from the dead they would change their ways.
quote:
The selfless (Good) people who suffer on earth will have their rewards in heaven. The selfish servants of mammon who have their rewards on earth will be tormented in Hades.
Nothing says that Lazarus was a good or selfless person. Nothing in the parable says the rich man served money. He just didn't use what he had to help Lazarus.
It deals with one issue.

Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission. -Eleanor Roosevelt-

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Modulous, posted 11-01-2005 11:56 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Modulous, posted 11-01-2005 2:31 PM purpledawn has replied

Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 47 of 300 (256039)
11-01-2005 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by purpledawn
11-01-2005 1:52 PM


Hades, burning, torment
Don't blend your stories. Each parable is separate.
There is a parable: Luke 16:1-9
Then there are some sayings.
Then there is the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man.
I don't have a problem with that, I can easily see they are seperate stories, but I'm sure you are capable of spotting a continuum between them.
The phrase before our parable is about divorce, but this parable isn't about that either. The saying on mammon has nothing to do with this parable.
We are talking about faithfulness. Faithfulness to wives, faithfulness to God, faithfulness to ones self.
One of the above is selfish; and lands you in torment.
So he is saying that if someone went to them from the dead they would change their ways.
Why would they change their ways? Because they would realize they were sinning?
Nothing says that Lazarus was a good or selfless person. Nothing in the parable says the rich man served money. He just didn't use what he had to help Lazarus.
Perhaps not. However, it does say that the rich man's brethren (who the rich man fears will join him (thus whatever they are doing he did)) do not take heed of Moses and the prophets. Taking heed of Moses et al (and subsequently repenting) is the way to avoid the torment. Thus: the rich man and his brethren did not take heed of Moses. This probably makes him a sinner.
Still, these points are side points. The rich man still ended up in Hades suffering torment and fire.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by purpledawn, posted 11-01-2005 1:52 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by purpledawn, posted 11-01-2005 2:55 PM Modulous has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 48 of 300 (256042)
11-01-2005 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by nwr
11-01-2005 1:38 PM


Re: I want, I want.
I understand. Was helping out on a course once up at my church. It was a kind of intro to the gospel kind of thing. For 'seekers' as they are known in the trade.
One chap piped up in the group with what I, in my new-born state, thought was a killer question:
"I know there is a spiritual dimension - you don't have to convince me of that. But I'm riding around this spiritual roundabout and there are dozens of potential exits. Everyone is saying "Take this exit - this is the right one". But how am I to know from my position on the roundabout. Can you answer me that?"
Silence. The seconds ticked by. Miriam spoke...
"If you examine every religion in the world you will find that they all have a central thing in common. And that is that your position before God is somehow dependant on what YOU do: meditate, seek enlightenment, pray, do good deeds, etc, etc. The difference between Christianity and all the rest (including Christian-sounding heresy) is that your position before God is not dependant on what YOU do ...but on what God has done FOR you"
There is a huge clamour here nwr. I see it myself. And the arguement seems to delve into the minutae: folk throwing in what the original Greek means and all that. Patently, one cannot be argued intellectually into the kingdom. Luckily one doesn't have to be.
The best person to go to in order to get clear direction is God. Forget all this debate. Pick up the bible. John is a good place to start as any. Small pieces at a time. A passage at max (whats contained under a heading - if your bible has headings - otherwise 10 verses at a time. Consider what you reckon yourself it it trying to tell you
But most of all. Ask God to help. It doesn't matter that you don't believe. He doesn't expect you to believe what you cannot. Just ask him. He wants you to after all
God bless...
This message has been edited by iano, 01-Nov-2005 07:51 PM

This message is a reply to:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 49 of 300 (256044)
11-01-2005 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Modulous
11-01-2005 2:31 PM


Re: Hades, burning, torment
quote:
Still, these points are side points. The rich man still ended up in Hades suffering torment and fire.
For the purposes of this story.
But the parable is fiction and still not a teaching of eternal torment.

Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission. -Eleanor Roosevelt-

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Modulous, posted 11-01-2005 2:31 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Modulous, posted 11-01-2005 3:05 PM purpledawn has replied

Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 50 of 300 (256047)
11-01-2005 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by purpledawn
11-01-2005 2:55 PM


Re: Hades, burning, torment
But the parable is fiction and still not a teaching of eternal torment.
So I ask again: Why did Jesus lend strength to something he knew was false?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by purpledawn, posted 11-01-2005 2:55 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by purpledawn, posted 11-01-2005 3:22 PM Modulous has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 51 of 300 (256048)
11-01-2005 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Modulous
11-01-2005 3:05 PM


Re: Hades, burning, torment
He didn't.

Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission. -Eleanor Roosevelt-

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Modulous, posted 11-01-2005 3:05 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Modulous, posted 11-01-2005 3:28 PM purpledawn has replied

Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 52 of 300 (256050)
11-01-2005 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by purpledawn
11-01-2005 3:22 PM


Re: Hades, burning, torment
So you don't think that Jesus, the Mesiah, King of the Jews, Saviour of Man, publically telling a bunch of people that a man went to Hades where there was torment and fire, is lending credence to the concept of Hades where there is torment and fire?
Given that we are having this conversation I think the evidence is in favour of my position.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by purpledawn, posted 11-01-2005 3:22 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by purpledawn, posted 11-01-2005 4:08 PM Modulous has not replied
 Message 113 by DorfMan, posted 05-07-2006 12:27 PM Modulous has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 53 of 300 (256051)
11-01-2005 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Modulous
11-01-2005 3:28 PM


Re: Hades, burning, torment
quote:
Given that we are having this conversation I think the evidence is in favour of my position.
Unfortunately we can't poll the actual audience.
But Paul's epistles don't seem to speak of eternal torment at all and he would have been closest to the fall out of the time as far as writing.
Even in Acts eternal torment is not mentioned. Hades a couple of times, but no eternal torment.
Plus no Hades mentioned in the Book of Mark.
And the rest of the supposed teachings of Jesus do not support eternal torment.
So if that is what you walk away with from the parable, then so be it. There is nothing more I can add.

Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission. -Eleanor Roosevelt-

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Modulous, posted 11-01-2005 3:28 PM Modulous has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by jaywill, posted 05-06-2006 10:02 AM purpledawn has replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 54 of 300 (309605)
05-06-2006 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by purpledawn
11-01-2005 4:08 PM


Re: Hades, burning, torment
Purpledawn,
Unfortunately we can't poll the actual audience.
Then we each have to decide whether we think the words of Jesus are trustworthy and credible. Does He have the kind of approvedness which lends to considering His words as reliable? Do the traits of His character lean toward a foolish man who speaks wild and untrue things amiss? Or is His character win our sense of trust that He speaks knowledgeably, credibly, reliably? Does He have the approvedness as a source of truth or is He more likely to be a deceiver or self deceived?
These are the issues and decisions that we are left alone with before God. And no one can make these decisions for us. I recommend honest prayer to help resolve them.
But Paul's epistles don't seem to speak of eternal torment at all and he would have been closest to the fall out of the time as far as writing.
I don't think that this statement is that reliable. A little infamous "quote mining" would probably not confirm your statement.
Even in Acts eternal torment is not mentioned. Hades a couple of times, but no eternal torment.
First of all, Hades in the Bible is simply the whole realm of the dead. Hades is not synonomous with torment.
Plus no Hades mentioned in the Book of Mark.
Do you think that every single book in the New Testament must mention every single subject in the New Testament for that subject to be believable? If Second Thessalonians, for instances, doesn't mention the virgin birth of Jesus, does that mean we should discount Luke's and Matthew's mentioning of it?
And the rest of the supposed teachings of Jesus do not support eternal torment.
I don't agree. Actually I think the opposite is true. Most of the teaching on everlasting punishment comes from the mouth of Jesus. It appears to me that God reserved such a solemn subject for Christ Himself extensively. It is Jesus Christ that men must blame then, for the concept of eternal damnation, for the most part. His mouth uttered such things.
So if that is what you walk away with from the parable, then so be it. There is nothing more I can add.
If you are talking about the account of Lazarus and the rich man, it doesn't have the ring of a parable at all. It has the ring of something that Jesus knew about or witnessed.
In what parable did Christ ever mention the specific name of a person? In no other parable of Christ that I can recall did He mention a person's name, i.e. Lazarus.
This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-06-2006 10:03 AM
This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-06-2006 10:03 AM
This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-06-2006 10:06 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by purpledawn, posted 11-01-2005 4:08 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by ringo, posted 05-06-2006 12:08 PM jaywill has replied
 Message 66 by purpledawn, posted 05-06-2006 5:16 PM jaywill has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 55 of 300 (309651)
05-06-2006 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by jaywill
05-06-2006 10:02 AM


Re: Hades, burning, torment
In what parable did Christ ever mention the specific name of a person?
quote:
Mat 12:40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
quote:
Luk 11:30 For as Jonah was a sign unto the Ninevites, so shall also the Son of man be to this generation.
A parable is simply a story that "parallels" a lesson to be taught.
The events in the story can be real or fanciful - it's still a parable. When a parable is told, the lesson is important, not the accuracy of the "events".

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by jaywill, posted 05-06-2006 10:02 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by jaywill, posted 05-06-2006 12:32 PM ringo has replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 56 of 300 (309660)
05-06-2006 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by ringo
05-06-2006 12:08 PM


Re: Hades, burning, torment
Ringo,
Mat 12:40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Luk 11:30 For as Jonah was a sign unto the Ninevites, so shall also the Son of man be to this generation.
A parable is simply a story that "parallels" a lesson to be taught.
The events in the story can be real or fanciful - it's still a parable. When a parable is told, the lesson is important, not the accuracy of the "events".
It does matter whether the source of the teaching is actual history or not. Let's look at the case of Matthew 12:40,41 - "Ninevite men will stand up in the judgment with this generation and will condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and behold, something more than Jonah is here" (Matt. 12:41)
It it not credible to me that Jesus is teaching that fictional men will stand with actual men in the judgment. The crowd He spoke to was actual and will stand at the judgment. And with them actual men Ninivite men will stand. I find it nonsensical that Jesus would teach that fictional and non-fictional people will stand together in a divine and final judgment.
So whether the reference to Ninevite men is fictional or historical is important. Of course if you believe the record of the Bible, you would believe that Ninevite repenters at Jonah's preaching were real.
This means that in the mind of Jesus both Matthew 12:40,41 and Luke 11:30 should be taken as remarks about history. And this would argue for him taking the Lazarus / rich man teaching as historical also.
This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-06-2006 12:33 PM
This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-06-2006 12:36 PM
This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-06-2006 12:37 PM
This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-06-2006 12:38 PM
This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-06-2006 12:39 PM
This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-06-2006 12:39 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by ringo, posted 05-06-2006 12:08 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by ringo, posted 05-06-2006 12:54 PM jaywill has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 57 of 300 (309667)
05-06-2006 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by jaywill
05-06-2006 12:32 PM


Re: Hades, burning, torment
jaywill writes:
This means that in the mind of Jesus both Matthew 12:40,41 and Luke 11:30 should be taken as remarks about history.
As I said, the characters and events may or may not be historical. That is beside the point. Most of Jesus' parables draw lessons from purely fictional stories - a few happen to mention historical characters and/or events.
The point of the Lazarus/rich man parable is that our judgement is not based on earthly position or wealth, that we can be condemned for misuse of our resources, etc. The point is in the guilty/innocent verdict, not in the sentence.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by jaywill, posted 05-06-2006 12:32 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by jaywill, posted 05-06-2006 1:08 PM ringo has replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 58 of 300 (309673)
05-06-2006 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by ringo
05-06-2006 12:54 PM


Re: Hades, burning, torment
The point of the Lazarus/rich man parable is that our judgement is not based on earthly position or wealth, that we can be condemned for misuse of our resources, etc. The point is in the guilty/innocent verdict, not in the sentence.
The points that can be derived from the teaching of Lazarus / rich man are many. This depends upon how deeply one is touched and how much of its statments and implications are regarded as serious.
From one person what is imparted is that moral misuse material wealth can have bad consequences. There is no reason that we all must stop there. I do not argue that one should NOT take this lesson away from the teaching. I do argue that it is invalid to say that that is the ONLY lesson to be learned and other implications are not important.
It could be easily demonstrated that given the fuller consideration of accompanying sayings of Jesus, it most certainly is a warning about punishment experienced personally after one has died. In other words, "Don't expect that you will just peacefully decay into dust. God may still be able to inflict punishment on you beyond the grave."
If you ask my opinion (and even if you don't ask) I definitely include in the teaching a warning that God can punish or reward a person after they have died. There are consequences to be reaped beyond the sphere of physical life.
This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-06-2006 01:08 PM

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 Message 57 by ringo, posted 05-06-2006 12:54 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by ringo, posted 05-06-2006 1:14 PM jaywill has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 59 of 300 (309677)
05-06-2006 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by jaywill
05-06-2006 1:08 PM


Re: Hades, burning, torment
jaywill writes:
It could be easily demonstrated that given the fuller consideration of accompanying sayings of Jesus, it most certainly is a warning about punishment experienced personally after one has died.
Then demonstrate it.

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Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by jaywill, posted 05-06-2006 1:08 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by jaywill, posted 05-06-2006 2:07 PM ringo has replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 60 of 300 (309699)
05-06-2006 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by ringo
05-06-2006 1:14 PM


Re: Hades, burning, torment
It could be easily demonstrated that given the fuller consideration of accompanying sayings of Jesus, it most certainly is a warning about punishment experienced personally after one has died.
Then demonstrate it.
Other Accompanying Statements that are Warnings of After Death Retribution:
"And do not fear those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna" (Matt. 10:28)
"And I say to you My friends, Do not fear those who kill the body and afterwards have nothing more that they can do. But I will show you whom you should fear: fear Him who, after killing, has authority to cast into Gehenna; yes, I tell you, fear this One" (Luke 12:4,5).
"Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming in which all in the tombs will hear His voice and will come forth: those who have done good, to the resurrection of life; and those who have practiced evil, to the resurrection of judgment" (John 5:28,29).
"Do not fear the things that you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison that you may be tried, and you will have tribulation for ten days. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.
He who has an ear let Him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall by no means be hurt of the second death" (Rev. 2:10,11)
In the case of Matthew 10:28 and Luke 12:4,5 Jesus is clearly teaching us that the level of fear towards God should exceed the level of fear of mortal men. And the reason for this is that their harm can only extend to us up to the point of death whereas God's retribution can extend to us beyond the point of our death. Consequently God is the one Whom we really need to fear. Physical death will furnish an escape from His punishment.
In the case of John 5:28,29 all those who are physically dead in the tombs will be resurrected. Some to eternal life and others to judgment. Therefore judgment upon men from God can extend
to them AFTER physical death.
In the case of Revelation 2:10,11 "faithful unto death" is a warning that some disciples will die. And the reward of not being "hurt of the second death" means that God can inflict hurt upon someone after they have suffered a previous first death.
This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-06-2006 02:07 PM
This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-06-2006 02:08 PM
This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-06-2006 02:09 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by ringo, posted 05-06-2006 1:14 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by ringo, posted 05-06-2006 2:31 PM jaywill has replied

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