Church spreading aids

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Originally posted by gene90:

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The spectre of "you are going to be rightly punished for wnating and having sex!" rears it's ugly, Puritain(sic) head.

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Well now, you've got to use common sense here. It's one thing to restrict yourself to one partner. It's another to frequent prostitutes. Also they shouldn't refuse to use condoms. I think that the AIDS epidemic is at least partially (maybe mostly) the fault of economics (prostitution) and culture (lack of monogamy).

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This is very simple to understand but it isn't what people want to hear. In a typical instance, when the New York gay community was first asked to be less promiscuous, the speakers were villified as "'anti-gay f*g***s', homophobes, fearmongers, and fools" (Laurie Garrett, The Coming Plague, p 292)

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Although it is possible to be infected with HIV without engaging in improper behavior (ex: bad transfusions, needle pricks) the fact is that most cases are contracted through immoral acts and behavioral shortcomings. That is why there is an AIDS stigma.

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[This message has been edited by gene90, 12-01-2002]

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Yes, love and physical pleasure between consenting adults is a horrible, destructive, evil thing.Yep, that ugly Puritain moralizing runs deep!

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Originally posted by John:
..STDs are diseases just like colds, malaria, dysentry, or gangrene....

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Ever read Heinleins "to sail beyond the sunset"?Its got a lovely passage where a doctor rants about the fact that STD`s are the one type of illness we could elliminate if everybody gpt their shit together as they are by definition diseases that are so difficult to contract that they require intercourse to be transmited...Not sure I agree entirely as we did a pretty good job getting rid of smallpox for example and also because STDs such as HIV can be transmitted in other fashions but still an interesting take on the matter....

Schraf, when you feel like making a substantive reply, by all means, do so.While I'm waiting, perhaps I should dress in solid black, wait till dark, and stand on the Interstate and see what happens.Most people get diseases because it is part of their environment. The problem with virtually all cases of this disease is that they get AIDS because they can't keep their pants on or get over their recreational chemicals. It's rather difficult to excuse that behavior. Almost as if they are deliberately out looking for it.[This message has been edited by gene90, 12-02-2002]

The irrelevant info is - that I also "messed" with the natives, pointing out the milky-way and explaining Kant's-nested-in-a-plane conception of; the systematic constitution. That is the same wrong European reason for going to change Africa etc of the past. The literate Zarwa I was commuicating regularly with in the Englih HE knew did not know of the solar system and galaxys. A gal there proposistioned me and the topless ones also said the same. That is also not relevant as we ALL, Christains and others, bathed in the same bath water.

You were asking for "proof" of the 'non-existence' of GOD and that 'proof' was indeed there when I was there as every nite I had to search all body cavities for "jiggers"(parasites), a routine that I never had to do here. That is not evil of course but life on the African continent but GOD in the Christian Missionary sense (OUTSIDE the hospital) did not seem to be there but I did not get deep enough into the spirtual life of the people there to know only the "spirit" seemed always to be a beer and a turn around jump shot on the beer manufacturers basketball court. When as we were leaving we wanted to give the Bikoru residents a presentation of what we had been doing at there countries research station they people of this market village insisted that it be shown during a worship session and some kind of disagreement broke out as we turned off our ocilloscopes. So for me I never had the same religous expereince there as I do here. I had even to get Sunday's off from work because the Cornell Grad student I went with pretty much thought since he gave me a free ride there he could treat me as slave. I do not know the particular refernce you mention with respect to NOW in Africa with contraceptive messages but then the pgymys were being treated by the locals as herds of sheep and my employer Cornell did the same to me. I am not poor in what I know. If only you could see it my way. Dont cross your eyes it is not good for you.

Brad what has any of that got to do with the church banning (and preaching against) the use of condoms in a country with an aids problem of epidemic proportions.

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Originally posted by gene90:
Supplies don't get through Africa well becaue of political instability and lack of infrastructure. Proving them with the insanely expensive cocktails necessary to fight HIV would be impossible. And partial doses are worse than no doses, it would encourage drug resistance. Only a one-time-use vaccine will save Africa

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I agree with you most of the time Gene and i know that Africa is a crazy place (for lack of better words). I was implying that the drug companies are making this insane amount of money due to the fact that they sell these drugs at a ridiculously high price. I know that alot of research money goes into coming up with these "cocktails" but obviously that cost is already covered in the sale of these drugs. Now after making a profit that large can't they bring down the rates to help those who really need it?Also I have noticed that sexual contact has been considered the main cause of spreading the Aids virus in Africa. Now unless I am mistaken (and it's happened before )Africa also has a huge drug problem. As a former user of all kinds of drugs I am aware of the unsanitary behaviours of users. Not just from intravenous drug use but the whole lifestyle is dirty, all kinds of things are shared, the places addicts spend their time are filthy. This kind of lifestyle leads to hopelessness anyway and these people I imagine don't to much care if they contract or spread the disease. This is a very hard thing to fight against, this despair and hoplesness.So I think there is much more to this problem than not using condoms, or keeping their pants or whatever. Oh and i have yet to see this article that proclaims this is why the Catholic church is going over there. If i missed it in this thread somewhere I'm sorry i looked for it and didn't see it. To my understanding it seems a very deeply rooted social problem, not just an issue of sexual morality. Africa has never been an easy place to live.------------------
saved by grace

The title 'Church Spreading Aids' is a very irrational one. The church neither started the spread of the aids virus there, or are they responsible for the continued spread of the virus.Furthermore, since the spread of the virus is not the fault of the church, why then do they seem to be held responsible for righting the problem? Doesn't responsibility really fall to every good and moral person on this planet?We can't blame the church for anything. And if there is something to blame, it is humanity. Have we been so blinded by greed and selfishness that we can't even see past our own noses? At least the church is trying to do something, whearas we sit on our behinds and critize them for trying to do something good.

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Yes, love and physical pleasure between consenting adults is a horrible, destructive, evil thing.Yep, that ugly Puritain moralizing runs deep!
________________________________________________________1. I am not sure that i understand your last statement here, schrafinator. Are you trying to say that we shouldn't have morals? If so, then it is OK for a prostitute, who is consenting to have sex for money, and Joe Blow, who is willing to pay the fee, to make love and everything is right in the world. But doesn't that mean that there really is no love, only physical pleasure? The prositute does not care for the love, nor does Joe Blow; they are both consenting, but only to the physical pleasure.2. Love and physical pleasure CAN be a very, very good thing. But I think that they are better experienced with only one partner. For example, if you were to have sex with one partner whom you felt that you loved one week, and the next, turn around and have sex with another partner that you felt you loved, doesn't that mean that you never really did love the first partner, and were only in it for the physical pleasure? Love is not a footnote of pleasure, rather, pleasure is a footnote of love. If you truly loved the first partner, then you would have stayed with them no matter what.

Dont lay your hangups on us. I gaurantee that if you attempt to stay all your life with one partner having had no others eventually you both will start to wonder what else life can offer. Trust me I am a normal person with no religious programming and a healthy sex life. Nobody has claimed that the church triggered aids, we condem the fact thatthey have banned the use of condoms in a country with a STD problemthey are telling people condoms spread aidsthey are telling people contraception will send them to hell

Don't mean to be rude there but how do you know that this is what they are doing in Africa? You have yet to provide even a basis for this argument other than slander of the Catholic church. If you aren't going over there to help out then what say should you have? I hope I'm misunderstanding this because it sure looks like there's no real interest in the people of Africa, moreover it would seem just a chance to slander religion.------------------
saved by grace

Pick a BBC report....http://www.bbc.co.uk/cgi-bin/search/results.pl?q=catholic...Any BBC report...

I stand corrected, and sad. Unfortunately so often we as Christians stick to these doctrines much to stringently. I don't care if you are Catholic or Protestant the important doctrine is that of the saving power and love of the Lord Jesus Christ. This is the important one, if we choose to follow these other doctrines (and alot of them are shaky and out of context) then fine, I just wish we wouldn't make these unimportant things a stumbling block to unbelievers. ------------------
saved by grace[This message has been edited by funkmasterfreaky, 12-05-2002][This message has been edited by funkmasterfreaky, 12-05-2002]

I hope you are not referring to the easily averted deaths of millions as an unimportant thing. If you want examples of stumbling blocks to unbelievers start with the crusades/whitch trails/eradication of druidism/persecution of anyone not in your church and dont forget institutionalised child molestation.

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Originally posted by Metatron:
I hope you are not referring to the easily averted deaths of millions as an unimportant thing. If you want examples of stumbling blocks to unbelievers start with the crusades/whitch trails/eradication of druidism/persecution of anyone not in your church and dont forget institutionalised child molestation.

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Oh I think you have misunderstood me. All these things come from sticking too strictly to doctrine that's not important or even blatantly false. I was not agreeing with any of these aproaches. I was saddened by the fact that the Catholics see their doctrine as more important than the love of Jesus Christ. Hope this clears up my stance for you.------------------
saved by grace