I'm trying: a stairway to heaven?

Ok...let's build on this and infuse a good portion of Scriptural references in an attempt to verify or falsify it. But that is not justice iano. That's called corruption when someone is forgiven simply because they know someone special -- or is affiliated with a certain group.You said in another thread: However, the Scriptural passages in Romans do make it abundantly clear that God is not a respecter of persons.For example: Some translate this last verse as "For there is no respect of persons with God."Consequently, what you are portraying -- by saying that God pays the fine for those who know him but leaves the fines of those who do not know him unpaid -- is exactly what Paul says does not happen.Furthermore, Paul then continues to discuss this in detail as follows: This means to me that only those who know the law will be judged by it. Here we have Paul saying that only those who obey the law are those who will be declared righteous. If Paul's words were being centrally focused solely on Christ, he certainly would've said at this point: but it is only Christ who obeys the law only Christ who will be declared righteous.But, since Paul is speaking in the plural sense "those", it seems more than fair to conclude that Paul is not speaking of the singular phenomenon of the Messiah here. He is speaking of anyone who obeys the law.Paul goes on to discuss how the Gentiles themselves do things by nature required by the law. He even notes that their ability to naturally do things required the law is evidence that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts. Paul then explains very plainly that this will take place on the day of judgement -- just as his gospel declares... What do these passages mean to you?I think they clearly state, among many other things, that God is not a respecter of persons in the way you've presented him: forgiving only those who know him. I agree. I agree here too. That's right -- and that's the role of us as Christians too, we have to pay the price for others who do not know God so that we can lead them into heaven by the power of the Holy Spirit.Paul seems to think so too by the way... Furthermore, Paul continually warns about becoming conceited in his writings.You said in your other message: Easy: When those employing the law end up being eternally damned by it because they thoroughly abused it.But let's continue. It's appallingly corrupt to say that this is even slightly considered fair in the eyes of God -- the same God who is apparently able to peer into the hearts of all people and judge them in proportion to what their limited human experiences have enabled them to grasp.I find it kind of ironic that many Christians today would even remotely consider this fair at all. Even more so, if we're teaching this then we are far more guilty of blocking the path to heaven than anything the Israelites of Christ's time are accused of doing within our Christian Scriptures. But many non-Christians do believe it -- because that's what's been told to them by other Christians. In fact, they believe it so much that they've concluded that God is nearly demonic because there is no possible way that someone could do this and reasonably call it fair in any sense of the word. Yes. It is free to all people.Would it seem appallingly awful to you if I told you that we Christians are in more grave danger of hell than unbelievers are -- because we shold know better?The Scriptures do proclaim that teachers will be judged more harshly in James if I recall. Many do want to follow his commandments.But, of course, why bother. Apparently all you have to do is be a Christian. Even if a Christian kills, rapes and pillages -- and then truly repents -- they still won't lose their salvation (according to your view).Meanwhile, here we have people who are honestly searching for the truth, even have the law inscribed on their hearts according to Paul, and yet they are still flungs into the depths of the fiery abyss FOREVER...That's not fair no matter how you dress it up. It's definitely not considered justice according to the Scriptures either.Observe... How much further do you want me to go with this? Exactly! And this is exactly what Paul is warning about: humility in realizing that we have not attained salvation on our own. Paul consitently warns about falling into the devil's snare in the same exact passages that you continually quote -- but you never seem to pay attention to these parts. God is the father of all people: Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Agnostic, Atheist, Polytheist, Hindu, Buddhist, Sihk -- regardless of whether we know it or not. God's name is hallowed.Yet often his name is blasphemed amongst the Gentiles because of our own failures -- not theirs.As it is written in Romans 2:24, "God's name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you." I've already started to dissect your assertions here.I'm still waiting for you to answer these questions by the way (they are all related to your assumptions about unmerrited grace and the idea that the Holy Spirit only moves Christians) : You said in another thread: Let's test this assumption a bit shall we?How about the titles "The Spirit of the Lord" or "God's Spirit" -- would you consider these titles references to the "Holy Spirit" back in the Hebrew Scriptures? I presume your hangover is gone now. So if someone is moved by the Holy Spirit then they are guaranteed salvation -- is this correct? Buh? This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 11-02-2005 03:53 AM

I agree completely. To know that Jesus was talking to a largely agricultural community hence his use of sheep and shepherd parables would have struck a particular resonance. Also the comparison of his way with the way of the law would have hit home at a time when people were a lot more familar with the written law than they are now.We can learn more from Jesus if we understand the settings of these things.But Jesus prime role was not that we be learn from him but that we be saved in him. And for that there is no need to know anything about the setting in which he spoke."For the gospel is the power unto salvation for all who believe" Conversion is done by God and he transmits his message, by his word, into our hearts. No time lapse or apparent archaic use language can impede that. It is God working through the gospel message that does the converting - for all who would believe.Learn from him by all means. Do the theology, look up the Greek. There is no harm in it (so long as one doesn't reside there - a theologian is not saved by his critical understanding of the text). It is very enjoyable I find. But salvation doesn't depend on it. Jesus came "to seek and save the lost" - not the smart.

But the cop IS part of a group. He is a Christian. And a Christian has all his sins forgiven. Every single one. Past, present, future. The Christian is no longer under the law. He is freed from law. He cannot come under judgement by the law. He is going to heaven. Period. Everytime he gets stopped speeding, Christ pays his ticketThe graphic artist on the other hand is not free from the law. He is not, as it were, in the club. Thus he must pay his own fines. ForeverAnd if that sounds exclusive and unreasonable then I can't help it. I'll wager that the reason it sounds unreasonable is that we have nothing to do with it. We all want to feel that we can earn it. Its natural. Like, who trusts anything that arrives with the word FREE written on it. But that is the way it is. That's what Good News is.It might help to know that my membership of the club has nothing to do with me having been a good person. Far from it Membership is open to all...who believe. The passage you quoted (which I'll re-quote latter) is in Romans 2. Romans, that most complete mechanical exposition of the gospel and how it works, can be seen as something of a workshop manual. And your quoting but a portion of the workings. Lets us look at some of it in context to see about what he is writing about.Paul opens the book with saluations to the Christians in Rome finishing up with verses 15-18 giving them the reason for writing his letter to them. He is going to be preaching the gospel to them. Even Christians need the gospel preached at them. We 'leak' it so need topping up That's his opening rational. He now goes on in the rest of Chapter 1 talking about Gods judgement upon the ungodly. Not the final Judgement but judgment that occurs all the time. A judgment on the class of people who completely ignore anything to do with God (the gentiles in those days), who live as they want with complete abandon. Unbelievers past and present.In chapter two he turns to the religious or the self-righteous; past (the Jews in those days) - and present. To the person who looks at those ungodly people and their behaviour and says "it is right those wicked people should be punished - ignoring God and his law in such a vile way". See what Paul says to them.. Anybody recognise the characteristics of Religion here? Anybody see that this Religious way, the way of following the law, will produce these characteristics? A self-righteousness? If not, read about the Pharisees of Jesus day: their judgementalism, their ludicrous and un-Christ-like adherance to law and the willingness to condemn others who weren't like they were: false piety, saying their prayers in public, fasting and letting all know about it."White washed tombs" Jesus called them. Paul is pointing out that God will judge all men who are under the law: the Gentile (unbeliever) who ignores it (but is born under it) and the Jew (or Religious person) who are too born under it and try to adhere to it. Here again we see the futility of "salvation by trying" Only those who "by persistance in good .... get eternal life" No indication that anything less that 100% will be enough. This thread asked for biblical evidence of 'trying' being enough. There is no biblical evidence for it. Only 'do it'. There is never any lowering of the standard if it is by following the law you want to be saved. Never.The only imparitality here is that the same applies both to Jew(Religious) and Gentile (heathen) alike. AbE: both are born under the law: whether you don't try at all to follow it or try to follow it and fail makes no difference. Judgement under law comes to all who are under law.
Contrast this with verse 1:16 above where the gospel is available to Jew(Religious) and Greek (Gentile or Heathen) alike. (aside: this came as something of a shock to early Christians - who were Jews - they resisted at first but then praised God that his method of salvation was open to all - Gentiles were (and still are by strict (religious = judgemental) Jews) considered as low as dogsAll Paul is doing in this section is explaining to whoever you may be that Gods wrath will be upon you. For no-one keeps the law. We are only in chapter 2. Paul is, like any good orator, setting the scene. He is showing all: gentile and jew, that they are in need of the gospel. Paul hasn't even started presenting the gospel yet. We have to wait until 3:21 before it begins. Exciting heh??!!Chapters 1 and 2? Opening scenes....This message has been edited by iano, 02-Nov-2005 02:56 PMThis message has been edited by iano, 02-Nov-2005 03:03 PM

Your comments in this area of your post remind me of the original thread request. "Trying". Only those who obey the law will be declared righteous. There is no trying here Mr X only obey. Do you have anywhere, scripturally, which says or indicates in some other clear way that "trying to obey" is the same as "obeying"It is worth noting (for any boys and girls out there who maybe reading this and is starting to see my point that there is no trying implied here or anywhere else - and who may be getting a little worried) that this verse is in the opening scene. Paul hasn't got to explaining the gospel yet. What do they mean? The same as Paul meant. Get yourself out from under the law as soon as you possibily can. No time to lose. Just a minor technical point. A Christian may 'lead' someone to Christ (in fact they don't - God just uses Christians to spread HIS gospel) but we don't lead them to heaven. Only Christ does that. You draw out some comparison with a Christians role and the apostles role. What it is I'm not sure. But whatever, an apostle is a different kettle of fish than a Christian. General comparisons can't be made. These were men set aside in a particular way. For example, one characteristic of an apostle is that he has seen the rised Lord. Me, I can't wait to see the risen Lord. DifferentHey Mr X, can you keep the posts shorter or do multiple posts dealing with different things. Scrolling up and down to cut n paste takes too long this way. ta

Eternally damned not because the abused it but because they are convicted of abusing it. No one is damned without being judged to have broken it. Thus my point stands: the most significant danger of the law is eternal damnation for those judged according to it.Which is the point of the law - to show a person just what they are messing with. Nobody will obey it. Your teaching 'trying' Mr X. Lets have something from our Christian Scriptures. None of this "obey must mean trying because God looks into the heart" which others do employing a jumble of random, out of context verse, plucked hither and thither. Plain teaching that trying to obey the law = obeying the law. A timely word of warning indeed. Have a read of Romans 2:1 again there Mr X Salvation by wanting? Obey Mr X, Obey. Aren't you forgetting a small detail? A Christian is a person who receives something they hadn't got before. He's called the Holy Spirit. The chances of killing, raping and pillaging are somewhat diminished from whatever levels they were before. Point being, a man who is not under law cannot be judged under law. The law and all it's mechanisms can only work and be applied to those who are subject to it. I don't see anything which indicates people honestly searching for truth in the passage (Romans 2:11-16) I see people who are conscious of breaking and adhering to law, even though they unlike the Jews (who he is addressing) haven't got, like them, the written law. Paul is and has been in this passage, pointing to the universality of law breaking: you have a written version or you have a conscience. "All have sinned and falled short of the glory of God" This is not "the gospel section" - it's an "explaining why a gospel is necessary section" You quoted much on Justice. But I don't get your point. God is just. He will judge each according to what he had done. A rabid lawbreaker can expect more punishment than a less rabid lawbreaker. Each deed will be repaid with an exactitude of justice that would boggle the mind.But a Christian won't be judged by the law or adherance to it. Someone else has paid the price of his sins. As a complete aside and I won't enter into a debate with you. Could you give a brief run down on what Jesus actually accomplished. How does he fit in the scheme of this "damnation by not trying enough" theology I do. Paul exhorts Christians to 'good behaviour' later in Romans and elsewhere. But not in the sense or for the reason that they will be condemned if they don't. But only certain people are given the right in eternity, to be called his sons... I couldn't agree more...

Knowledge and understanding through discussion it is... Tentatively yes. If you had an example to see context it would help me to be more certain I has indeed thanks. But be gentle on me. Be Christ-like Nope. A person who repents, ie: recognises (in whatever way that comes about) of their reliance on self and on their need of a savior, has a number of things happen to them. They are:made righteous in Gods sight
have their sins forgiven
are at peace with God
are translated out of the realm of darkness and into the realm of light
has eternal life (note 'has'),
receives the Holy Spirit as indwelling
is assured of their salvation (even if they don't recognise it themselves)
are born again ...etc etc.If a person is convicted (or convinced) of their need (by the workings of the law in them - the law showing them that they cannot keep the law) - it is the Holy Spirit moving them to this point. But they have not got the Holy Spirits indwelling.Different thing... We are born spiritual descendents of Adam. Adam our federal head. When he fell, we fell. We've inherited the sinful nature that entered at the fall. The reason for the virgin birth was to break the sin line that travelled down to every single one of us. Jesus was born like Adam - without a sinful nature. Jesus the second Adam
Jesus, unlike Adam obeyed completely.In Adam we were born. In Adam we remain. Unless taken out of Adam and put 'in Christ'.That's how the mechanics work. God puts our old man, the one with the sinful nature, the one who is dead to God and his laws - to death. He kills him. Crucifies him with Jesus on the cross. Then resurrects us (which is when we become Christians or Christ in's)Put to death, raised to life. Born again. And there is no detailing in the mechanics of it which show how we can be uncrucified or lose our position in Christ.Like it ain't rocket science This message has been edited by iano, 02-Nov-2005 12:29 PMThis message has been edited by iano, 02-Nov-2005 12:30 PM

it is quite clear that judaism is henotheistic not monotheistic. as a result, to catually believe in the same god, christians must then be henotheistic. actually. in order to hold the beliefs they do about satan and the angels etc, they must be henotheistic. just because they don't know that is not my problem.

No, it is more monolatrism. Satan is not a god. Baal (from a competing religion) is a god. Asherea was a competing god.Of course, in Modern judaism, baal is not believed to have existed.

you say it is monotheistic. you say satan is not a god. however, he has the characteristics of god (knowledge and life), therefore, he must be a god. he may not be THE god and he may not have worshippable behaviours, but he still qualifies as a god.the hebrew god is described as the GOD OF GODS. how can that be if there are no other gods? he says 'you shall have no other gods before me'. how can that be if there are no other gods? just saying that there are other gods is no idolotry. he only demands that you worship him alone. it's like admitting there are angels (as they are lesser gods).the hebrew god is described as the GOD OF ISRAEL. baalzebub is described as the GOD OF EKRON (2kings 1)there's a specific reference that i'm looking for, but i can't find it. a gentleman from philistine (i think) comes to israel because he believes the god of israel (as opposed to the god of his area) can heal his disease. this is the case so he decides that only the god of israel deserves his praise. so, he takes back like six mule loads of dirt so that he can worship the god of israel in his own land. this is precisely characteristic of regional deism... a form of henotheism. does the bible say he is idolotrous for using the dirt of israel for worshipping the god of israel? no it does not. he is doing the proper thing.the god of israel calls people from foreign lands to his own so that they may worship him. he called abraham from iraq. he called the jews from egypt. in fact, the only reason the jews worship the god of israel is that he brought them from egypt. that is his demand in the commandments. 'i am the lord your god who brought you out of egypt. [therefore,] you shall have no other gods before me.' that's the way it reads. that's the way it is interpretted. it's not because he formed the earth and the stars and blah blah blah (whether he did or not) but because he brought them out of egypt. he saved them from slavery.this is precisely the reason for pilgrimage and the best reason for it. christianity simply abandons this idea because hellenistic culture demanded more perfection and biggerness (yes that's the precise term i wish to use ;p).

This is precisely the reason why I despise what Christianity stands for.
Mr. X made an incredibly good point in his post. The attitude that Christians are a cut above everybody else just because they are member of an elite club and that God is just going to forgive whatever they do, utterly sucks and drives away a whole bunch of otherwise good people.
A God who would set up such a system is a God of corruption whom I would NEVER serve under any circumstances.I even have a personal example of this attitude.I have a very religious friend who has two sons. A couple of years ago i was working with these two boys to clear the snow off my driveway (after their father sent them over to help). At the time the elder was 14 and the younger was 11.
The two boys began arguing about something and the elder one swung his snow shovel at the younger one's head. It connected but thankfully did little damage.
Later when I asked the elder boy why he had done it, he replied.
"Because I am a Christian and I know that Jesus will forgive me when I ask him to in my prayers. I know I will still go to heaven, no matter what I do."
This attitude totally disgusted me and strengthened my resolve against this (IMO) evil belief system.

God wants everyone to come into his 'club' You can join or not join. But if you chose not to join it's little bit ridiculous to complain about the benefits that the people who have chosen to join. Is it not? A couple of problems with this. Firstly, saying your a Christian doesn't make you one - so we can't tell whether this guy was one or not.Secondly, although a Christian has all sin forgiven he is not left to own devices. He gets the Holy Spirit and undergoes sea changes. He comes to hate sin more and more, comes to recognise his sin more and more. If a person thinks Christianity is a licence to sin then try it. You may be in for a shock Try Romans 6: verse 1 and see what Paul has to say about it.One thing is for sure. If a person considers their being a Christian to be an opportunity to sin as they please and get away with it then one thing is pretty sure: they are not a Christian

For what it's worth PYGoing to church doesn't make you a Christian
Reading the bible doesn't make you a Christian
Praying doesn't make you a Christian
Being brought up in a Christian home doesn't make you a Christian (God has childred - no grandchildren)
Be born in a Christian country doesn't make you a Christian
Saying, thinking or feeling you are a Christian doesn't make you a Christian
Believing that God exists doesn't make you a Christian
Being a theologian doesn't make you a ChristianGod is the only one who can make a person a Christian. If your heart wants him to then he will. Nothing will stop it, nothing will take it away. A Christian who is made such by God cannot become a non-Christian...its a one-way door.

And this is precisely my point.That was the point that Mr. X was making too (I think)I don't for one moment imagine that all people who claim to be Christians, share your beliefs or act the way that you say a true Christian does.
In fact i would go so far as to say that the vast majority of Christians just pay lip service and never really live the life that you describe. They all claim to be Christian. They all live by the belief that they are saved because they are baptised and go to church. These are the people i have a real problem with and you are right that when the time comes (assuming there is a God) they are going to get one big shock.
The problem is that for people like me, looking in from the outside, is that organised religion is absolutely full of these people.A lot of people seem to believe the things you are saying about how to become saved but not the method by which it can happen. To them it just appears to be a license to be as nasty as they like in the sure knowledge that they will be forgiven.It's kind of like being in the Masons. Membership may get you all the opportunities but I would still reject that membership because i don't like what it stands for. The corruption of such a system sickens me.

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In fact i would go so far as to say that the vast majority of Christians just pay lip service and never really live the life that you describe. They all claim to be Christian. They all live by the belief that they are saved because they are baptised and go to church. These are the people i have a real problem with and you are right that when the time comes (assuming there is a God) they are going to get one big shock.

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In some cases you have "faith only" (no good behavior needed) actually being incorporated into the theology. I find it kind of troubling but people are free to believe what they want.This message has been edited by gene90, 11-02-2005 10:47 AM

Of that I have no doubt.
My point is that the forefront of organized Christianity is largely composed of people who go to church, sing the hyms, make the confessions, mouth the prayers, then go right back to doing what it is they always did in the certain belief thet they are now saved
The few who really live the life because they have genuine "faith" are lost in the crowd.