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Author Topic:   I'm trying: a stairway to heaven?
gene90
Member (Idle past 3822 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 136 of 303 (256210)
11-02-2005 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by PurpleYouko
11-02-2005 10:51 AM


Re: Jesus gave directions
quote:
My point is that the forefront of organized Christianity is largely composed of people who go to church, sing the hyms, make the confessions, mouth the prayers, then go right back to doing what it is they always did in the certain belief thet they are now saved
The few who really live the life because they have genuine "faith" are lost in the crowd.
I tend to agree. Some go as far as to hide behind it, using faith to vouch for character.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by PurpleYouko, posted 11-02-2005 10:51 AM PurpleYouko has not replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 137 of 303 (256212)
11-02-2005 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by PurpleYouko
11-02-2005 10:36 AM


Re: Jesus gave directions
py writes:
I don't for one moment imagine that all people who claim to be Christians, share your beliefs or act the way that you say a true Christian does.
I'm a Christian. I can't help that fact. And person can be a true Christian and not share just about any of my beliefs. There is only one thing a person must do to become a Christian. It matters not whether you agree with all the bible or come from a different denomination. You can believe in "claiming healing and it will be done" I don't. You can believe in a second blessing of the Holy Spirit. I don't. You can believe that the bread and wine are the actual body and blood of Jesus. I don't. But believing these things neither prevents nor cancels a persons ability to become a Christian
Becoming a Christian is first and foremost a positional thing. A legal declaration by God that the person is declared righteous in his sight. That the person isn't righteous in their own or others sight matters not. What God sees matters. Subsequent to the legal declaration of citizenship or sonship does the Christian experience the power of God in his life.
The problem is that for people like me, looking in from the outside, is that organised religion is absolutely full of these people.
People become Christians despite organised Religions not because of them. There are Christians in every denomination and none. God doesn't reside in Religion, he works around Religion. Religion is always about law no matter which one it is. Jesus hated Religon for crying out loud. Christianity is about freeing people from the yoke of the law. Freeing them from Religion.
To them it just appears to be a license to be as nasty as they like in the sure knowledge that they will be forgiven.
Of course it does. It is sin inside a person which would love such a situation to be true. The person who loves sin.
But hopefully there will be a few who look at themselves, hate the lawbreaker in themselves (in whichever way they happen to break 'the law'), despair at ever being free from the apparent addiction of being unable to stop themselves doing what they hate doing. It is such people who are closer to salvation than they imagine. Such people have the brunt of the law doing precisely what it is supposed to: make them feel condemned. And they feel condemned and ashamed and guilty. Such people don't want a licence to sin - they long to be free of sin.
"And if the son sets you free - you shall be free indeed" And what do you have to pay? Nothing. He paid.
It would make you cry.....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by PurpleYouko, posted 11-02-2005 10:36 AM PurpleYouko has not replied

Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1336 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 138 of 303 (256261)
11-02-2005 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by iano
11-02-2005 5:45 AM


Re: Jesus gave directions
iano writes:
But the cop IS part of a group.
So what?
It's still corruption iano -- no matter how you explain it.
And that's exactly what the Scriptures say over and over again that God does NOT do -- he is NOT a respecter of persons, and he does NOT show favoritism.
Can you show me in the Scriptures where it says that God works the way you say he does?
For the record, before we get into the theological discussion, I would like to lay out our positions clearly:
I'm saying that Paul is arguing that works cannot save us in order to warn other Christians about becoming too conceited.
You say that Paul is arguing that works cannot save us in order to prove that only Christians can be saved.
Have I summed up your position clearly here?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by iano, posted 11-02-2005 5:45 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by iano, posted 11-02-2005 2:35 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 139 of 303 (256263)
11-02-2005 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by iano
11-02-2005 5:45 AM


Law and Teachings
IMO you create havoc when you don't deal with the differences in what Jesus taught and what Paul preached and to whom.
In your OP you brought out the "commands" of Jesus.
"Judge not lest you be judged"
"Love your enemy"
"Love God with all your heart soul and mind"
"Love your neighbour as yourself"
Jesus was teaching Jews (the original club) the spirit behind the Mosaic Laws. Getting into the ethics and not just the letter of the law. God did not give an expiration date on the Mosaic Covenant.
Paul was writing to Gentiles, who were not raised with or accountable to the Mosaic Law, and Jews.
quote:
The Christian is no longer under the law. He is freed from law. He cannot come under judgement by the law. He is going to heaven. Period. Everytime he gets stopped speeding, Christ pays his ticket
So let's take the Christians out of the equation. They already have an "in" so they don't need to try or do. The Christian Club has reserved seating no matter what.
Now let's look at what Paul writes in Romans:
2:12-14
For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves
According to Paul the people in the Jewish Club will still be judged by God according to the Mosaic Laws which includes forgiveness which Jesus speaks of in the Book of Mark. See Message 7
Now those who do not have the Mosaic Law are a law unto themselves and will be judged accordingly. Those who sin outside the Mosaic Law will perish outside the Mosaic Law. Since this group instinctively does the things of the Law, then forgiveness is also included. As they forgive, so shall they be forgiven.
And as Paul wrote in Romans:
2:6-10
who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
So while the Christian Club may have reserved seats and an undeserved get-out-of-Hades-free card, the rest of the world does get points (so to speak) for trying because that is what the Mosaic Law and our instinctive law allows. When we miss the mark, we repent, are forgiven and try harder. We learn from our mistakes and eventually succeed. We persevere.

Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission. -Eleanor Roosevelt-

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by iano, posted 11-02-2005 5:45 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by iano, posted 11-02-2005 3:24 PM purpledawn has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 140 of 303 (256278)
11-02-2005 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
11-02-2005 1:17 PM


Re: Jesus gave directions
mrx writes:
It's still corruption iano -- no matter how you explain it.
What is corrupt about an on duty cop paying the fine of a fellow cop caught speeding? Its the cops choice to decide who he fines he wants to pay. The graphic artist hasn't a leg to stand on.
And that's exactly what the Scriptures say over and over again that God does NOT do -- he is NOT a respecter of persons, and he does NOT show favoritism.
Is it favoritism that a golf club member may play a game of golf at the club and a non-member can't. Of course not. It has nothing to do with favoritism but with membership. Or citizenship. Or sonship
The Romans 2 passage is talking about people who are not Christians (not in Christ). And there is no favoritism shown there. Both (possessors of the law written on tablets and possessors of the law on conscience) are members of the same club. The "Not In Christ" club. The "Under the Law" Club. All members of this club get the same basic treatment - their sin will be judged under the law - without fear or favour. All members of the 'in Christ' club get the same basic treatment: eternal life without fear or favour
Can you show me in the Scriptures where it says that God works the way you say he does?
Which way is that? And could we leave it anyway mr x. This thread is really about the scriptural basis for 'trying' in connection with salvation or damnation
I'm saying that Paul is arguing that works cannot save us in order to warn other Christians about becoming too conceited.
You mean you are not saying anything about works and damnation? I thought you were. I know we've spun off but can we go on topic.
You say that Paul is arguing that works cannot save us in order to prove that only Christians can be saved.
What I say about Paul (or anyone else) is done in relation to the OP To counter the view that says:
"works affects salvation" or "If saved, works can lose your salvation"
...can be shown scripturally
I know it's diverged but if we try we can maybe stay on track. Fresh start if you like

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 11-02-2005 1:17 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 11-02-2005 3:10 PM iano has replied

Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1336 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 141 of 303 (256287)
11-02-2005 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by iano
11-02-2005 2:35 PM


Re: Jesus gave directions
mrx writes:
It's still corruption iano -- no matter how you explain it.
iano writes:
What is corrupt about an on duty cop paying the fine of a fellow cop caught speeding?
It's corrupt because, in order to be fair, on duty cop has to also pay the fine of the graphic artist as well. If the on duty cop pays the fine of the off-duty cop and then turns his nose to the plight of the graphic artist, then the on duty cop has shown favoritism even though both are equally guilty in the eyes of the law.
iano writes:
Its the cops choice to decide who he fines he wants to pay.
No. It is the cops duty to enforce the law equally and without partiality to the social status, gender, or economic ability of those who break the law. It is called justice.
The Scriptures, by the way, state over and over that God operates exactly the way I've noted: that he is a just God who does not show favoritism.
Remember all those Scriptural passages that I quoted about God and justice, the ones you just ignored and swept under the proverbial rug in order to continue with your petition that God shows favoritism?
iano writes:
The graphic artist hasn't a leg to stand on.
Neither does the off duty cop -- except for the fact that the on duty cop has cut him a deal in order to escape punishment.
So far we've been speaking in light terms of a fine for speeding, but this question gets much more serious when one considers situations where one is guitly of murder for example. If one person is pardoned because he knows the cop while the other person is executed because he has no ties to law enforcement, then we are talking about corruption in the most high places.
It gets even worse when one talks about eternal damanation based on the exact reasons. Don't fool yourself iano. There's absolutely nothing fair about it.
Period.
Mr. Ex nihilo writes:
And that's exactly what the Scriptures say over and over again that God does NOT do -- he is NOT a respecter of persons, and he does NOT show favoritism.
iano writes:
Is it favoritism that a golf club member may play a game of golf at the club and a non-member can't. Of course not. It has nothing to do with favoritism but with membership. Or citizenship. Or sonship.
This is a useless analogy though.
Who cares whether one can play golf or not?
We're talking about whether someone should be considered guilty or not -- and whether or not they should be punished for their crime.
If you're reducing the eternal fate of each individual to being a question of whether they have membership in a gold club or not, then I think we're going in two very different directions here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by iano, posted 11-02-2005 2:35 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by iano, posted 11-02-2005 3:55 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has not replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 142 of 303 (256290)
11-02-2005 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by purpledawn
11-02-2005 1:30 PM


Re: Law and Teachings
Purpledawn writes:
Jesus was teaching Jews (the original club) the spirit behind the Mosaic Laws. Getting into the ethics and not just the letter of the law. God did not give an expiration date on the Mosaic Covenant. Paul was writing to Gentiles, who were not raised with or accountable to the Mosaic Law, and Jews.
I think the writing is a bit more universal than that. Jesus came to seek and save the lost. That means everybody. The gospel was to be spread to the ends of the earth. It speaks to you and me and everybody. Lost and found alike.
PD from msg 7 writes:
Trying is nothing more than attempting to do. If you manage 75% of the time during your life to be kind to your "enemies", have you failed because it isn't 100%?
Yup. "He who follows the law yet stumbles on but a piece of it is guilty of breaking all of it"
PD writes:
So while the Christian Club may have reserved seats and an undeserved get-out-of-Hades-free card,
Undeserved. Nail on the head.
..the rest of the world does get points (so to speak) for trying because that is what the Mosaic Law and our instinctive law allows. When we miss the mark, we repent, are forgiven and try harder. We learn from our mistakes and eventually succeed. We persevere.
This is the best direct attempt to deal with the OP Purpledawn. But there is a mish-mash of ideas assembled together (with the motivation, I'm sure, to try to assemble the overview for me). Your instinctive law will differ from anothers which is why I was looking for a biblical case. Take the word perserverance. You have a view. Your own view. The King James uses the phrase 'patient continuence'. A Greek lexicon for the word 'continuence' kicked up this...
uJpomonhv (Transliterated: Hupomone)
Steadfastness, constancy, endurance:
a; in the NT the characteristic of a man who is not swerved from his deliberate purpose and his loyalty to faith and piety by even the greatest trials and sufferings.
Trying and failing and trying again is not indicated.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by purpledawn, posted 11-02-2005 1:30 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by purpledawn, posted 11-02-2005 4:26 PM iano has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 143 of 303 (256294)
11-02-2005 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
11-02-2005 3:10 PM


Re: Jesus gave directions
mrx writes:
then the on duty cop has shown favoritism even though both are equally guilty in the eyes of the law.
The cop has dispensed justice equally in both cases. Both drivers are stopped, both are issued ticket. The fine must be paid. When it is paid, justice has been served. Justice is blind. It is mechanical. It has rules and as long as the rules are adhered to it has nothing more to say. There is nothing unjust about the cops actions.
Now if he hadn't paid the fine and let the cop off. That would be unjust. But he does pay the fine
Favoritism. The cop shows favor. Favor on the basis of club membership, friendship, repaying a favor. Whatever. There is a reason for it. But it is not unjust. He can show favor if he likes. Its his money to do what he like with afterall. The graphic artist has no complaint about justice not being served. He has got perfect justice. But no favor. Why not. The on-duty cop has no reason to offer any. It's his money to do what he likes with: to show favor to whom he will show favor, mercy to whom he will show mercy
Can you accept impartial justice after which, partial favor?
The Scriptures, by the way, state over and over that God operates exactly the way I've noted: that he is a just God who does not show favoritism.
In the area of the application of justice he, like the cop, shows no favor, is impartial. Once justice is served the favor comes in. Take separation of sheep and goats. Justice based on absolute fairness. Once justice is complete, favor most certainly comes in.
In the Romans passage, God shows no favor in application of Justice. Both Jew (the religious) and Gentile (the irreligious) are both under law and will be dealt with under law. Written law or Conscience Law. No difference. "All have sinned and fallen short.."
If one person is pardoned because he knows the cop while the other person is executed because he has no ties to law enforcement, then we are talking about corruption in the most high places.
As I hope I've shown above, there is a difference in where the favor takes place. The cops favor took place AFTER the application of justice. Justice is not perverted so long as the ticket is issued and the fine is paid. Justice is over at that point. The analogy above is a different one and if you want I'll deal with it on the suitable lines.
It gets even worse when one talks about eternal damanation based on the exact reasons. Don't fool yourself iano. There's absolutely nothing fair about it. Period.
Whats unfair? I sin and you (for example) sin. Both of us deserve to be punished for our sin. We accept justice must be done. Now, I have accepted Jesus' offer (open to all) to pay for my sins instead of me. You (for example) haven't. Jesus is punished for my sins and you're punished for your sins. What gripe have you got? What should have happened?
- Jesus can't makes any offer we both must pay ourselves?
- you should not have to pay even though you haven't accepted his offer and I have?
-neither of us pay regardless and justice isn't done?
What's wrong with Jesus paying for my sin and not yours - if you don't want him to? Surely the choice is his to offer and ours to accept.
I fail to see what the difficulty is!!
This message has been edited by iano, 02-Nov-2005 09:00 PM
This message has been edited by iano, 02-Nov-2005 09:02 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 11-02-2005 3:10 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by crashfrog, posted 11-02-2005 4:11 PM iano has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 144 of 303 (256295)
11-02-2005 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by iano
11-02-2005 3:55 PM


Re: Jesus gave directions
The fine must be paid. When it is paid, justice has been served.
I don't see how there's any legal basis for seeing it that way. The purpose of a fine is not for the justice system to get money for itself (although, pragmatically, that's often the result); the nominal purpose is a financial punishment of an offender.
You don't get out of paying a fine just because someone else makes a donation in the same amount in your name. You can, of course, give the offender a monetary gift in exactly the amount of the fine, but then it's their choice to use that gift to pay the fine or not; the money still comes out of their pocket.
Justice is not perverted so long as the ticket is issued and the fine is paid. Justice is over at that point.
I'm sorry, but there's no legal or ethical basis for seeing it that way. Justice is the punishment of offenders. When another is punished in the place of the offender, there's no legal basis for considering that justice - that's always a perversion of justice. It's the same as executing an innocent man - forcing him to "stand in" for the punishment that should be meted out to the murderer.
And indeed, if an innocent man is executed, but the murderer is later caught, the fact that someone was executed for the crime the murderer committed has no weight as a defense. The murderer doesn't get to escape his punishment just because another was mistakenly punished in his place. Justice is not merely the meteing out of punishment; it's when punishments are meted out to those who deserve them.
There's no legal basis for any other conclusion. What you're calling "justice" in this post is a fiction and a perversion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by iano, posted 11-02-2005 3:55 PM iano has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by purpledawn, posted 11-02-2005 4:46 PM crashfrog has not replied
 Message 149 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 11-03-2005 1:50 AM crashfrog has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 145 of 303 (256297)
11-02-2005 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by iano
11-02-2005 3:24 PM


Re: Law and Teachings
quote:
I think the writing is a bit more universal than that. Jesus came to seek and save the lost.
You're jumpting outside the book. Stick with your OP.
iano OP writes:
I stress 'biblical basis' because what I have heard thus far seems to be result of peoples own ideas as to what Jesus must have meant, ie: people apply their own subjective logic to fill the biblical gaps in making their case for salvation/damnation by works.
It doesn't matter whether you feel they are universal or not. Jesus was speaking to a very specific audience. An audience who adhered to the Mosaic Law. You still have to understand who and what he was teaching.
quote:
Your instinctive law will differ from anothers which is why I was looking for a biblical case.
We aren't talking individual. The Not-In-Christ Club as you put it, I will call it the Secular Club, has their own instictive law, which Paul spoke of. The Secular Club will be judged by their laws.
I provided the scripture that supports that. Address that scripture.
quote:
Trying and failing and trying again is not indicated.
Yes it is. The Forgiveness Factor covers that. The Forgiveness Factor is present in the Mosaic Law and in the Secular Club.
Mt 6:14-15
"For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
"But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.
Again Jesus was speaking to Jews who adhere to the Mosaic Law.
So are you going to consider the commands universal but not the forgiveness?

Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission. -Eleanor Roosevelt-

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by iano, posted 11-02-2005 3:24 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by iano, posted 11-03-2005 11:35 AM purpledawn has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 146 of 303 (256301)
11-02-2005 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by crashfrog
11-02-2005 4:11 PM


Spoiled Kid Scenerio
Doesn't this Christian Club scenerio really sound like the kid whose father always buys his way out of trouble?
Even the OT new better than to spoil a child.
Why avoid trouble is you don't have to pay the price?

Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission. -Eleanor Roosevelt-

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by crashfrog, posted 11-02-2005 4:11 PM crashfrog has not replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 147 of 303 (256341)
11-02-2005 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by macaroniandcheese
11-02-2005 8:12 AM


Cool guy?
it is quite clear that judaism is henotheistic not monotheistic.
No it isn't. It is quite obvious that early 'Judaism' (which in this case is anachronistic) was polytheistic. It was never 'henotheistic' because the Isralietes in the premonarchic period did actually acknowledge that other people worshipped others gods. Henotheism means that they would worship one God whilst not denying that other gods existed. it was clearly monolartristic.
Jewish polytheism evolved into monotheism, which is relevant to what I claim. Judaism is a monotheistic religion, hence a capital 'H' is required as a grammatical rule.
as a result, to catually believe in the same god, christians must then be henotheistic.
You are about 3000 years out of date with this statement.
actually. in order to hold the beliefs they do about satan and the angels etc, they must be henotheistic.
Why? Where does the Bible claim that Satan or angels are gods?
just because they don't know that is not my problem.
Nor mine, but to be grammatically correct is a different matter.
This is interesting:
he's not an omnipotent being, he's just a really cool dude.
He really is such a cool dude that He:
Joshua 10:11 (New International Version)
As they fled before Israel on the road down from Beth Horon to Azekah, the LORD hurled large hailstones down on them from the sky, and more of them died from the hailstones than were killed by the swords of the Israelites.
God murders more people than Joshua's armies.
Exodus 12:29-30
At midnight the LORD struck down all the firstborn in Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn of the prisoner, who was in the dungeon, and the firstborn of all the livestock as well. 30 Pharaoh and all his officials and all the Egyptians got up during the night, and there was loud wailing in Egypt, for there was not a house without someone dead.
Leviticus 26:21-22
" 'If you remain hostile toward me and refuse to listen to me, I will multiply your afflictions seven times over, as your sins deserve. I will send wild animals against you, and they will rob you of your children, destroy your cattle and make you so few in number that your roads will be deserted.
Exodus 23:23
23 My angel will go ahead of you and bring you into the land of the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Canaanites, Hivites and Jebusites, and I will wipe them out.
Do you write letters to serial killers and ask them to marry you?
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by macaroniandcheese, posted 11-02-2005 8:12 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by macaroniandcheese, posted 11-02-2005 8:10 PM Brian has replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 148 of 303 (256360)
11-02-2005 8:10 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by Brian
11-02-2005 6:57 PM


Re: Cool guy?
you're going to believe the political parts of this collection of stories when we know they are inaccurate?
we have outside sources that say that the israelites were defeated by armies they claimed to have beaten.
This message has been edited by brennakimi, 11-02-2005 08:11 PM

And why you think you take a Ho to a Ho-tel
Ho-tell everybody, even the mayor
Reach up in the sky for the Ho-zone layer
Now C'mon playa wants a Ho always
And Ho's neva close, they open like hallways

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by Brian, posted 11-02-2005 6:57 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by Brian, posted 11-03-2005 8:51 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1336 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 149 of 303 (256410)
11-03-2005 1:50 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by crashfrog
11-02-2005 4:11 PM


Re: Jesus gave directions
The fine must be paid. When it is paid, justice has been served.
crashfrog writes:
I don't see how there's any legal basis for seeing it that way.
Exactly.
crashfrog writes:
The purpose of a fine is not for the justice system to get money for itself (although, pragmatically, that's often the result); the nominal purpose is a financial punishment of an offender.
You don't get out of paying a fine just because someone else makes a donation in the same amount in your name. You can, of course, give the offender a monetary gift in exactly the amount of the fine, but then it's their choice to use that gift to pay the fine or not; the money still comes out of their pocket.
And, I'll add, if the police force is paying the fines for their police officers that break the law in order to keep them out of jail, then it is most certainly considered corruption.
I don't see how iano cannot see this.
Iano, if you were in the position of the graphic designer in this hypothetical situation, you would most certainly bear a grievance against those who you felt were abusing the law to further their own ends.
Again, I'm just speaking in light terms as far as punishment goes.
If the police actually went so far as to "wipe the criminal's slate clean" by conceiling evidence, just as Christ apparently does only for Christians in your opinion when he treats us as if we didn't ever sin, then the police are most certainly guilty of corruption -- and can land themselves in jail if caught doing so by fair police officers.
iano writes:
Justice is not perverted so long as the ticket is issued and the fine is paid. Justice is over at that point.
crashfrog writes:
I'm sorry, but there's no legal or ethical basis for seeing it that way. Justice is the punishment of offenders.
Amen crashfrog!
Jusice does not end with the simple issuing of a speeding ticket.
crashfrog writes:
When another is punished in the place of the offender, there's no legal basis for considering that justice - that's always a perversion of justice.
Maybe not always.
crashfrog writes:
It's the same as executing an innocent man - forcing him to "stand in" for the punishment that should be meted out to the murderer.
There is one note that I will add.
If the innocent man willingly takes the place of the murderer, then there is some distinction that should be made. However, even in this case, if the innocent man is unable to stand in the place of all murderers fairly, then, again, I will note that justice is still being perverted.
But this is where the police anology breaks down within the theological ramifications of it all. There is no system around that I know of which would allow this to take place. I'm talking more spiritual issues here in terms of one's raw ability to forgive.
crashfrog writes:
And indeed, if an innocent man is executed, but the murderer is later caught, the fact that someone was executed for the crime the murderer committed has no weight as a defense. The murderer doesn't get to escape his punishment just because another was mistakenly punished in his place.
Returning to the police analogy, I would add BINGO!
crashfrog writes:
Justice is not merely the meteing out of punishment; it's when punishments are meted out to those who deserve them.
Can I hear an amen?
crashfrog writes:
There's no legal basis for any other conclusion. What you're calling "justice" in this post is a fiction and a perversion.
Exactly. There's nothing fair about it at all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by crashfrog, posted 11-02-2005 4:11 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by iano, posted 11-03-2005 7:22 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has not replied
 Message 153 by crashfrog, posted 11-03-2005 8:21 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1336 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 150 of 303 (256411)
11-03-2005 2:12 AM


Iano, please stop ducking and dodging.
iano writes:
This passage comes up in the 'trying' thread. Pick a verse in isolation and the bible can mean anything you want it to mean. Like I'm surprised "Faith without works is dead" hasn't come up yet
Just like you picking out verses form the Scriptures in order to justify that only Christians are going to heaven?
By the way, I moved my response to here so I could keep this in the "appropriate thread" as you noted.
iano writes:
Are peoples actions created?
People's actions, if they are considered good in God's eyes, are the result of the Holy Spirit. Within the focus of Pauline theodynamics, there's no debating this part iano.
iano writes:
I wouldn't think so. To play it safe I'd say it would be the things that the bible says are made: the universe, plants and animals, us
Our actions are made by the power of the Holy Spirit when we are aligned to God's will.
Even the "actions" of the prophets of old were brought about by the motion of the Holy Spirit -- because they were inspired by the Holy Spirit when writing the Scriptures for example.
Furthermore, 1 Corinthians 12:3 clearly states:
NIV writes:
Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
Clearly one's "actions" in these Scriptural cases -- when postive --are produced by the motion or inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
There's no arguing with this part iano.
Now answer my questions:
Can non-Christians be moved by the Holy Spirit or not?
What happens to babies when they die -- do they go to hell because they didn't believe in Christ?
Did Adam go to hell?
This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 11-03-2005 02:15 AM
This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 11-03-2005 02:16 AM

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by iano, posted 11-03-2005 9:30 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

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