I'm trying: a stairway to heaven?

iano writes: Eternally damned not because the abused it but because they are convicted of abusing it.

iano writes:No one is damned without being judged to have broken it.

NIV writes:And where there is no law there is no transgression.

Romans 4 writes: What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter?If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about -” but not before God.What does the Scripture say?"Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:"Blessed are they
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.Blessed is the man
whose sin the Lord
will never count against him."Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised?We have been saying that Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness.Under what circumstances was it credited?Was it after he was circumcised, or before?It was not after, but before!And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised.So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them.And he is also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith.For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, because law brings wrath.And where there is no law there is no transgression.Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring -” not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham.He is the father of us all.As it is written: "I have made you a father of many nations."He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed”the God who gives life to the dead and calls things that are not as though they were.Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, "So shall your offspring be."Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead -” since he was about a hundred years old -” and that Sarah's womb was also dead. Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised.This is why "it was credited to him as righteousness." The words "it was credited to him" were written not for him alone, but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness -” for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

NIV writes:But sin is not taken into account when there is no law.

Romans 5 writes: Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God.Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope.And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die.But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned -” for before the law was given, sin was in the world.But sin is not taken into account when there is no law.Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.But the gift is not like the trespass.For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.The law was added so that the trespass might increase.But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

iano writes:Thus my point stands: the most significant danger of the law is eternal damnation for those judged according to it.

iano writes:Which is the point of the law - to show a person just what they are messing with. Nobody will obey it.

NIV writes:But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

What, then, was the purpose of the law?It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come.The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator.

So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith.

If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the law was given to the people), why was there still need for another priest to come -” one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron?

mrx writes:And, I'll add, if the police force is paying the fines for their police officers that break the law in order to keep them out of jail, then it is most certainly considered corruption.

If the police actually went so far as to "wipe the criminal's slate clean" by conceiling evidence, just as Christ apparently does only for Christians in your opinion when he treats us as if we didn't ever sin

iano writes:Justice is not perverted so long as the ticket is issued and the fine is paid. Justice is over at that point.

Jusice does not end with the simple issuing of a speeding ticket.

If the innocent man willingly takes the place of the murderer, then there is some distinction that should be made.

mrx writes:If the adversary was created perfect, then how did he fall?In fact, how did Adam fall for that matter. Did they break the law? Did why is it that their sin is radically different from anyone else's -- or is it?

iano writes:Thus my point stands: the most significant danger of the law is eternal damnation for those judged according to it.

mrx writes:I just quoted the Scriptures above which explicitly state why the law was "added" later. Just in case you ignore it again, the Scriptures explicitly state in Romans 5:20 that the law was added so that the trespass might increase.

mrx writes:it's "purpose" is to lead us to Christ (which is exactly what I've been saying from the beginning).

I also see nothing here about nobody obeying it either.

Crash writes:Justice is when the offender is punished; not simply that punishment occurs.

Justice is defined by what the people responsible for determining, enforcing and executing the justice, not you.

Your opinion has no bearing.

If these people decided that justice is served by the issuing of a ticket and payment of a fine and they don't proscribe who coughs up the cash, then when the cash is coughed up, justice is done.

It matters not who pays the fine in this case

Justice is defined by the justice maker, not you.

mrx writes:People's actions, if they are considered good in God's eyes, are the result of the Holy Spirit. Within the focus of Pauline theodynamics, there's no debating this part iano.

iano writes:I wouldn't think so. To play it safe I'd say it would be the things that the bible says are made: the universe, plants and animals, us.

There's no arguing with this part iano.

Now answer my questions:

Can non-Christians be moved by the Holy Spirit or not?What happens to babies when they die -- do they go to hell because they didn't believe in Christ?Did Adam go to hell?

Crash writes:No, that's not true. Justice is defined not only by a legal construct called "natural law", but by the codification of a body of legal precident and explicit legislative action.

iano writes:If these people decided that justice is served by the issuing of a ticket and payment of a fine and they don't proscribe who coughs up the cash, then when the cash is coughed up, justice is done.

PD writes:You're jumping outside the book. Stick with your OP.

iano from OP writes:As far as I can make out the only form of words Jesus used regarding laws (in relation to our adhering to them) was or can only be implied to be, command form. Some examples:

It doesn't matter whether you feel they are universal or not. Jesus was speaking to a very specific audience. An audience who adhered to the Mosaic Law. You still have to understand who and what he was teaching.

pd writes:We aren't talking individual. The Not-In-Christ Club as you put it, I will call it the Secular Club, has their own instictive law, which Paul spoke of. The Secular Club will be judged by their laws.

Romans 3:19 writes:"Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith it to them who are under the law, that (or in order that) every mouth may be stopped and all the world become guilty before God

Mt 6:14-15 writes: "For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
"But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.

pd writes:Again Jesus was speaking to Jews who adhere to the Mosaic Law. So are you going to consider the commands universal but not the forgiveness?

Matthew 5:2
He (Jesus) opened His mouth and began to teach them, saying,

mrx writes:If the adversary was created perfect, then how did he fall? In fact, how did Adam fall for that matter. Did they break the law? Why is it that their sin is radically different from anyone else's -- or is it?

iano writes:Law breaking. Breaking Gods laws is a sin. I'm not sure about Satan but would imagine, God being just and all that, that satan, like Adam, broke Gods law.

Romans 2:13-15 writes: For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)

iano writes:Adams sin is different than ours I think. In the sense that he had no sinful nature so wasn't pre-disposed to sin like we are. Like most people who are the first to do anything, his sin is the most significant.

iano writes:Thus my point stands: the most significant danger of the law is eternal damnation for those judged according to it.

mrx writes:No it doesn't. Sin is not taken into account when there is no law. And where there is no law there is no transgression.

iano writes:Lets see if we can find common agreement: sin IS taken into account when there is law (which there is now) and where there is law there IS trangression (which there is now). There are transgressors now Agree?

mrx writes:I just quoted the Scriptures above which explicitly state why the law was "added" later. Just in case you ignore it again, the Scriptures explicitly state in Romans 5:20 that the law was added so that the trespass might increase.

iano writes:The law added later was the mosaic law, eg: 10 commandments. There are adequate grounds to say there was law before:- the mosaic law was added... to something
- trespass existed before the mosaic law, "increase"...from some level
- In the garden God said "Do not eat..." ...law

iano writes:I agree with the reasons why the law was added. Do you agree that law and transgression (sin) existed before the mosaic law was added?

mrx writes:it's "purpose" is to lead us to Christ (which is exactly what I've been saying from the beginning).

iano writes:I read through the scriptures you quoted and was a wondering where it would end up. You didn't have to go to so much trouble. I agree with the purpose of the law being a schoolteacher to lead us to Christ and as a consequence of that result in our justification

He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms."

You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

iano writes:But the law isn't Christ, neither does it justify. It only has a partial role in the whole salvation plan. To lead... to be the means whereby...

iano writes:The question is: how does it do this. What action does the law take. Condmenation is what it does. That's all it can do. The consequences of it doing that to us will cause us to flee to Christ. The law is only meant and can only go "BOOO!!!" ...and give us the fright of our lives. And we'll run..

iano writes:The law has fulfilled its purpose once it goes "BOOO!!" Anyone who reaches that state will flee to Christ. He will be in the same position as the man at the end of Romans 7 who, having being condemned by the law will say "Oh wretched man that I am, who will deliver me from this body of death" Next line "Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ. Seamless transition to salvation.

iano writes:The purpose of the law is to lead. It does so by condemning. The purpose of the law can then equally be said to condemn.

iano writes:Lead is just another word for condemn.

iano writes:Condemnation is the only role it can fulfill. It is but a cog in the wheel of the salvation plan.

Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:I also see nothing here about nobody obeying it either.

iano writes:If you obey the law then you won't sin. But everyone is a sinner. thus no-one obeys. Obeying some of the law, some of the time is not the same as obeying the law. Obeying the law means just that. Obeying. This is the original thread topic. Making "obey", a command = "try to obey", an exhortation

You, even if you are a lawmaker, are subject to the fruits of their efforts.

That's what happens in real life Crash.

I'm not sure I'll be able to get along with your tone.

we have outside sources that say that the israelites were defeated by armies they claimed to have beaten.