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Author Topic:   Karl Rove: Traitor?
berberry
Inactive Member


Message 226 of 271 (256417)
11-03-2005 3:31 AM
Reply to: Message 220 by Silent H
11-01-2005 4:52 AM


Re: Forging The Case For War
holmes writes me:

quote:
I doubt that Fitzgerald will even begin to touch this subject because he appears very focused on one topic...

I'm not so sure. Fitz is nothing if not thick-skinned. I've read, in an article I don't have immediately at hand, that he's actually been talking to NATO sources. The article speculated that the conversations were about the forgeries, but who knows?

One thing's for sure, the Italian parliament is investigating. You might enjoy reading this San Francisco Chronicle piece on the subject.

Here's an interesting quote from the article:

But Farrell (professor Henry Farrell of George Washington University) said that many Italians view the matter as yet another dark conspiracy.

"Italian politics is incredibly byzantine and incredibly nontransparent, especially on security issues," Farrell said. "There is a pervasive (public) belief of dietrologia carried out behind the scenes by powerful, shadowy figures, all more or less incomprehensible except to a few insiders in Rome.

"This case will be interpreted as more of the same."

I consider this a condemnation of the MSM in America. The Italian Parliament's investigation was spurred by a series of articles in the La Republicca newspaper. As part of the Italian media, that paper exists in a world that is even more Clear-Channeled than ours is, and as Professor Farrell says the Italian public is indifferent. Contrast that with American polls showing heightened interest in this country among both republicans and democrats and there's no excuse for the reluctance of our own media in covering this.


"We look forward to hearing your vision, so we can more better do our job. That's what I'm telling you."-George W. Bush, Gulfport, Miss.,
Sept. 20, 2005.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by Silent H, posted 11-01-2005 4:52 AM Silent H has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 227 by Omnivorous, posted 11-03-2005 11:46 AM berberry has not yet responded

  
Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 1110 days)
Posts: 3808
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 227 of 271 (256500)
11-03-2005 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 226 by berberry
11-03-2005 3:31 AM


Re: Forging The Case For War
dietrologia

What a lovely word!

I found this:

from "What Really Happened":

Dietrologia is the Italian word for the science of what is behind. Italians never believe things at face value. There is always something hidden behind it which provides the real explanation. The science of finding these hidden explanations is dietrologia (from dietro= behind), an expression coined in the 1980s. "Usually this concerns the background of sinister events: bribery; corruption; the misuse of power for private benefit; crooked politicians."

ABE: It appeals to my Sicilian fraction.

This message has been edited by Omnivorous, 11-03-2005 11:47 AM


This message is a reply to:
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Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 1110 days)
Posts: 3808
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 228 of 271 (285604)
02-10-2006 1:52 PM


Hotdiggity! Cheney ordered leak of classified info?!
A number of us have suspected Cheney's hand in this affair from the beginning. Perhaps there is nothing like prosecution to focus a man's mind on the truth.

Libby Says 'Superiors' Authorized Leaks
Cheney's former aide told a jury that classified information he gave to journalists was OKd.

By Richard B. Schmitt, Times Staff Writer

WASHINGTON — Former vice presidential aide I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby has told a federal grand jury that his "superiors" authorized him to leak highly sensitive intelligence to journalists, including a New York Times reporter he allegedly tipped off to the name of an undercover CIA operative.

The revelation is contained in a Jan. 23 letter from Special Prosecutor Patrick J. Fitzgerald to lawyers for Libby, who was indicted in late October in connection with the leak of the operative's name. In the letter, Fitzgerald recounts testimony in which Vice President Dick Cheney's former chief of staff admitted circulating portions of the National Intelligence Estimate to reporters in June and July 2003.

See full LA Times report here.]

This message has been edited by Omnivorous, 02-10-2006 02:19 PM


"Dost thou think because thou art virtuous there shall be no more cakes and ale?"
-Sir Toby Belch, Twelfth Night

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Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC!
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Replies to this message:
 Message 229 by randman, posted 02-10-2006 6:18 PM Omnivorous has responded

    
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3041 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 229 of 271 (285709)
02-10-2006 6:18 PM
Reply to: Message 228 by Omnivorous
02-10-2006 1:52 PM


Re: Hotdiggity! Cheney ordered leak of classified info?!
It appears Richardson has not identified a crime being committed other than the cover-up. So if Cheney or someone else ordered the release of Plame's name, then it doesn't appear to be a crime as she was no longer working undercover.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by Omnivorous, posted 02-10-2006 1:52 PM Omnivorous has responded

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 Message 233 by Peal, posted 02-11-2006 6:30 PM randman has responded

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2070 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 230 of 271 (285722)
02-10-2006 6:51 PM
Reply to: Message 229 by randman
02-10-2006 6:18 PM


Re: Hotdiggity! Cheney ordered leak of classified info?!
it doesn't matter if she is no longer undercover. by releasing her name and identity, they have jeapordized anyone she ever worked with who may still be undercover. cause see. people are smart and can figure out who people are associated with.
This message is a reply to:
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Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 1110 days)
Posts: 3808
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 231 of 271 (285737)
02-10-2006 7:24 PM
Reply to: Message 229 by randman
02-10-2006 6:18 PM


Re: Hotdiggity! Cheney ordered leak of classified info?!
Well, Rand, that has been a GOP talking point since the early days, one that has been thoroughly refuted by the simple fact of her status at the Company. I am relieved to know the VP has the authority to waive national security laws when WH political fortunes are at stake. It makes me feel so...safe.

As to no other crimes being committed...

Richardson? Did you mean Fitzgerald? Fitzgerald merely said he would only use this particular material as narrative context for his prosecution of Scooter, not that no other crimes had been committed.

Prosecutors and grand juries determine whether indictments are warranted. Pretrial procedures often reveal additional information that results in new indictments (witness the nervously turned GOP heads in Washington when Scanlon turned on Abramoff), esp. when those under present indictment begin to absorb the reality of criminal proceedings and start cutting deals with the prosecution.

I understand a grand jury is still impanelled. I wonder why that is?


"Dost thou think because thou art virtuous there shall be no more cakes and ale?"
-Sir Toby Belch, Twelfth Night

Save lives! Click here!
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC!
---------------------------------------


This message is a reply to:
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Silent H
Member (Idle past 3962 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 232 of 271 (285800)
02-11-2006 5:42 AM
Reply to: Message 229 by randman
02-10-2006 6:18 PM


Re: Hotdiggity! Cheney ordered leak of classified info?!
So if Cheney or someone else ordered the release of Plame's name, then it doesn't appear to be a crime as she was no longer working undercover.

1) Bush and Co stated no one they knew was involved with the leak (illegal or not), and if anyone was they'd be canned. This would make them liars. It is just as bad as "I did not have sexual relations with that woman", only we were the one's with the cleaning bill.

2) Bush and Co claim that simply revealing general procedures publicly for the purposes of congressional investigation, or privately to get legal authorization, is tantamount to aiding the enemy and endangers everyone's lives. Yet for purposes of revenge, they release the name of an operative (covert at this point or no) as well as reveal procedure, just so that they can create FALSE STATEMENTS about their enemy? Does that make sense to you?


holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)
This message is a reply to:
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Peal
Member (Idle past 2841 days)
Posts: 64
Joined: 03-11-2004


Message 233 of 271 (285880)
02-11-2006 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 229 by randman
02-10-2006 6:18 PM


Re: Hotdiggity! Cheney ordered leak of classified info?!
So if Cheney or someone else ordered the release of Plame's name, then it doesn't appear to be a crime as she was no longer working undercover.

Randman, if you believe that the release of Plame’s was not a crime, why then would someone as intelligent as Libby, a lawyer, allow himself to be put into a situation where he perjures himself and or obstructs justice?

His situation now, imo, is that he has to put the blame on an administration he was once loyal to or go to jail.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Tal
Member (Idle past 3819 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 234 of 271 (286220)
02-13-2006 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 233 by Peal
02-11-2006 6:30 PM


Re: Hotdiggity! Cheney ordered leak of classified info?!
Randman, if you believe that the release of Plame’s was not a crime, why then would someone as intelligent as Libby, a lawyer, allow himself to be put into a situation where he perjures himself and or obstructs justice?

No, it was not a crime, or it would be in the charges. Remember, he hasn't purjured himself or obstructed justice until it is proven.


The Muslim women have a no lesser role than that of men in the war of liberation; they manufacture men

Hamas Charter
What's your favorite line?
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 1110 days)
Posts: 3808
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 235 of 271 (286225)
02-13-2006 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 234 by Tal
02-13-2006 2:58 PM


Re: Hotdiggity! Cheney ordered leak of classified info?!
No, it was not a crime, or it would be in the charges. Remember, he hasn't purjured himself or obstructed justice until it is proven.

Interesting logic, Tal.

You surely don't believe that all crimes turn up in indictments?

Prosecutors are strategists; they often will not complicate a strong case on one charge with difficult to prove charges. The presence of a charge in the indictment is suggestive of a crime having been committed, though not proof, as you point out; but the absence of a charge in the indictment does not prove that a crime was not committed, or even that the prosecutor does not believe a crime was committed.

Also, if we give the assertions of Libby's defense team any credence, those responsible for the leak are only now being identified.

The grand jury is still impaneled. The door is still open.


"Dost thou think because thou art virtuous there shall be no more cakes and ale?"
-Sir Toby Belch, Twelfth Night

Save lives! Click here!
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC!
---------------------------------------


This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by Tal, posted 02-13-2006 2:58 PM Tal has responded

Replies to this message:
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Tal
Member (Idle past 3819 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 236 of 271 (286230)
02-13-2006 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 235 by Omnivorous
02-13-2006 3:11 PM


Re: Hotdiggity! Cheney ordered leak of classified info?!
Interesting logic, Tal.

It is commonly referred to as innocent until proven guilty.

You surely don't believe that all crimes turn up in indictments?

No, I don't believe that.

The grand jury is still impaneled. The door is still open.

Keep your fingers crossed, but if I were a betting man I would say that if the prosecution could charge anyone with the leak, they would have done so by now.


The Muslim women have a no lesser role than that of men in the war of liberation; they manufacture men

Hamas Charter
What's your favorite line?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by Omnivorous, posted 02-13-2006 3:11 PM Omnivorous has responded

Replies to this message:
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Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 1110 days)
Posts: 3808
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 237 of 271 (286237)
02-13-2006 4:18 PM
Reply to: Message 236 by Tal
02-13-2006 3:32 PM


Re: Hotdiggity! Cheney ordered leak of classified info?!
It is commonly referred to as innocent until proven guilty.

True: the only citizens not considered innocent until proven guilty in the U.S. are the ones ordered locked up indefinitely by Bush without recourse to habeas corpus, lawyers, or courts.

Still, my bad, Tal--I was ambiguous in my reference: my comment on your "interesting logic" was aimed at your assertion that if no charges were brought, then no crime was committed. I agree that innocent until proven guilty is a fine standard. I look forward to the trial(s).

Keep your fingers crossed, but if I were a betting man I would say that if the prosecution could charge anyone with the leak, they would have done so by now.

Previously, we had a far murkier situation, with the VP CoS claiming that any release of classified material was inadvertent and involved info everyone in Washington already knew (i.e., Valerie Plame's employment at the CIA), and claiming that it was done only to clarify the lack of relationship between Cheney and Wilson. Remember that spin? How many spins ago that was!

Now, for the first time, we have made public a statement by that same VP chief of staff claiming that his "superiors authorized" him to divulge classified information for political purposes. I don't know about you, but when my superiors "authorized" something, they wanted it done, and the VP does not have the authority to declassify intelligence information.

I agree that a man whose fingerprints are found at a murder scene is innocent until proven guilty, but I wouldn't want my grand-daughter to date him before the trial :).

My fingers aren't crossed--I'll leave that to the WH when they issue their dodge 'em statements. But my suspicions are strengthened, as my OP and its title make clear.

We'll see what Fitzgerald and the grand jury make of this, but a majority of the American people have already concluded that the Bush administration is not an honest one, as reflected by his low ratings in opinion polls on the issue.

This message has been edited by Omnivorous, 02-13-2006 04:21 PM


"Dost thou think because thou art virtuous there shall be no more cakes and ale?"
-Sir Toby Belch, Twelfth Night

Save lives! Click here!
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC!
---------------------------------------


This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by Tal, posted 02-13-2006 3:32 PM Tal has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3041 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 238 of 271 (286513)
02-14-2006 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 233 by Peal
02-11-2006 6:30 PM


Re: Hotdiggity! Cheney ordered leak of classified info?!
Peal, because regardless if it was a crime or not, and that seems to still be something fuzzy, it was a politically a major problem.

Do loyal lieutenants ever go down for covering up for their actions with the boss (his boss being Cheney)?

Yep.

Personally, I don't know what's up and what's not up with Cheney, but he wields a lot of power for a Vice President.


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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3041 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 239 of 271 (286516)
02-14-2006 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 235 by Omnivorous
02-13-2006 3:11 PM


Re: Hotdiggity! Cheney ordered leak of classified info?!
Omni, Tal is correct. This is probably not a crime or he would have charged him with that. This gives the administration a lot of cover actually because they can say it's just political, lying to investigators maybe, but not covering up a crime.
This message is a reply to:
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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3041 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 240 of 271 (286521)
02-14-2006 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by Omnivorous
02-13-2006 4:18 PM


Re: Hotdiggity! Cheney ordered leak of classified info?!
Also, there has never been a totally honest administration in my lifetime, and there may never be. But on the whole, Bush is one of the most honest president's there has been. Most politicians, for example, that are running for president don't really tell you what they are thinking and what they want to do. They spin it, and make false promises like Bill C. did when he campaigned on "the middle class tax cut."

Bush, on the other hand, has been remakably honest about what he wants to do, and he has basically tried to do exactly what he campaigned on, and that's refreshingly honest, which makes it all the more bizarre to hear liberals slam him as dishonest. Bush is as honest a president as you are ever likely to see, and way more honest than most of his predecessors in the modern era.

Now, let's get to this point. Members of the CIA were leaking classified reports to the media to undermine the administration's drive to war in Iraq. They felt they were doing the patriotic thing undermining the president because they felt a duty to the nation.

Others in the CIA and elsewhere felt it was very dangerous for the CIA to be intervening in executive policy, and that it is not the role of the nation's intelligence agencies to act in that manner. That's the context of what was occurring.

Plame and her husband seemed to come down on the side undermining the administration. I say "seemed" because it could all be murkier. Wilson seemed particularly over the line because he really didn't even seem to do much investigation on his trip, and seemed to feed disinformation to the public.

So the administration started leaking something like members of the CIA were doing, but the media is jumping on the Plame name being leaked.

Hmmm...who is at fault here? I think insubordination within the CIA is a dangerous thing all on it's own since they are not elected to form policy. The president and Congress are. On the other hand, I can see where someone would feel their first loyalty is to the nation, but then again, the CIA has done a lot of things that are over the line.

So maybe both are at fault. Both camps leaked classified info, assuming leaking Plame's name is classified, but I suppose we still don't know that yet.

Is this the big deal the media and dems are making it out to be?

I don't think so. It's political jockeying between elected officials (the VP), and a government agency during a time of strong disputes about what's best for the nation.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by Omnivorous, posted 02-13-2006 4:18 PM Omnivorous has responded

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