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Author | Topic: God says this, and God says that | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
John Inactive Member |
quote: David has a very good point, funkie. God's speaking to you isn't unverifiable. All you need to do is have God give you the answers to a few questions. But there is that prohibition against testing God.... wonder why that is? ------------------
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John Inactive Member |
quote: Yup. Sure is.
quote: God could sure clear up a lot of thing very quickly just by filling out a quiz. It doesn't really seem too much to ask.
quote: ... because God would fail the test.
quote: Maybe if you knew me and knew the work that god hasn't done ...
quote: Can't complain about the practical consequences... ------------------
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John Inactive Member |
quote: This is the easy answer.
quote: Your analogy doesn't make sense to me.
quote: Earn faith? Isn't that oxymoronic?
quote: Cute.
quote: So you'll be starting you quest for Thor soon then? With just enough faith that you won't immediately reject whatever the result?
quote: This is getting trite, gene. In any other arena you'd realize how absurd this logic is.
quote: My work? You mean fasting, beating myself and taking drugs so I can talk to him?
quote: ok ????
quote: Nope. Twas the Easter bunny helping out. And you can't prove differently using the same logic you've been using so far. Its absurd.
quote: In other words, don't expect anything that might qualify as evidence. This is insane, gene.
quote: Now I am going to get offended. Don't pretend to know what time and effort I have put into finding out for myself. My life has been devoted to it.
quote: The path isn't clear, gene. And there is no way to investigate, as your entire post has explained.
quote: I admit having little respect for this kind of arrogant self-righteous crap.
quote: Don't pretend to know me. It is irritating. I believe what I believe because I have spent the last twenty years tearing myself apart.
quote: Funny, considering the post you have composed.
quote: Sorry, the easy way out is 'a book told me so' ------------------
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John Inactive Member |
quote: Where is history is it standard procedure for a kng to NOT demonstrate his power?
quote: The effect would have likely been very unpleasant for the peasant, but he would have gotten a response. That is the point, Funk. There is no response. NONE.
quote: I would think that the king would cut the insubordination very short. YOUR GOD DOES NOT. Again, this is exactly the point.
quote: When does the clay talk back? I'd answer if it did.
quote: This is the shutting off your brain part.
quote: Funk, would you walk into a room and start talking to a being you can not see, hear, smell, taste or touch because someone told you there was a being in the room? This is what you ask. Would you walk in and start chatting on faith? I doubt it. And if you did, how long would you talk before giving up? Would you show respect to the empty room? Probably not. And after hours, days, weeks and months of jabbering to the empty room, certainly you would show no respect to it. Would you humble yourself to the invisible silent being in the empty room? Nope.
quote: No. I do not answer to such a person, but I ANSWER someone who comes at me in arrogance, slandering my character. ------------------
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John Inactive Member |
quote: Then you have invalidated your own analogy. This would also qualify as back-pedaling to save an argument I've shown to be poorly constructed. It doesn't speak much for your credibility, though I don't think any of this is intentional on your part.
quote: The king that controls the aquaduct. Actually, a lot of power can be and has been wielded by he who controls the water supply.
quote: You must enjoy gutting your own argument.
quote: Ditto.
quote: Then why the analogy?
quote: This isn't the guy to who toasted Sodom?
quote: There you go. All this trouble and you understand.
quote: Funk, I felt much the same fifteen years ago when I first read Diary of a Drug Fiend. Does this mean Crowley picked me up and fixed my broken self? Not really. But by your logic it does. ------------------
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John Inactive Member |
quote: Sorry you disagree. This makes me a sick puppie? You write essays that promote pedophilia?[/quote] Like hell, gene. I've went through this crap with nos482 at length and I do not feel like doing it again. The slander is going to piss me off very quickly.
quote: What pornography?
quote: No, I don't. It isn't hard to understand why a non-existent entity isn't taking part in my life.
quote: It happens to be a terribly common means to the end. Virtually every culture used such methods at one point or another.
quote: Do you habitually duck out when your views are challenged? Or is this just a means to avoid the topic? ------------------
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John Inactive Member |
quote: And they were replies to insubstantial material. "You've got to find God before you can walk with him." Come on Gene, can you get more trite?
[quote][b]I spent actual time writing my post and you will spend time in your replies if you wish to continue the thread. [/quote] I spend an enormous amount of time researching and writing my posts, so drop the attitude.
Debate in good faith by addressing rebuttals through the introduction of new information or by providing additional argument. Do not merely keep repeating the same points without elaboration. Excuse me? It seems that you are violating this very rule. It strikes me that you are avoiding the issues I am trying to raise, and you don't like the logic. If the admins have a problem with my posts, they'll let me know.
Respect for others is the rule here. Argue the position, not the person. Oops... hang on...
quote: This isn't in violation of the rule you cite? And what about this? oh... wait... I see you edited out that 'sick puppy' quip.
quote: Nope. That is not my argument. I ask for evidence. There isn't any, unless I believe first. Guess what? I started out believing. I was raised believing.
quote: I have sought God. I spent the better part of my first 25 years doing that. I see no reason to believe that such a thing exists. I follow the evidence the best I can.
[quote]If I had not found a religion I liked, then eventually it would have been expedient for me to investigate Thor./quote Like? It boils down to what you like? Gene, how do you know? This is the problematic question.
quote: You post a string of assinine arguments and complain when such is pointed out to you? And splatter a healthy helping of ad hominem attacks at me to boot. The problem, dear gene, is that what you posted to me was ridiculous and hardly worth the replies I gave. Replies, which by the way, were dead on target, on topic and quite sufficient to the task. ------------------
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John Inactive Member |
quote: How long would you believe a scientific theory if you were told you could not test it? Not long I imagine. Yet, this is what you ask.
quote: I am sure you are aware of my problems with nos. In that light, I can only conclude that this quip is meant for no purpose but to injure. Thanks.
quote: Give me an actual substantive problem. "To walk with God you have to find him" Well, to walk down the street you have to find it too. To drive a car you have to get inside. To watch TV you have to turn it on. You can't truly believe that quip had substance? The problem is THE FINDING, not the walking with. Think about this. To walk with God, you have to find him, to find him you HAVE FIRST TO WALK WITH HIM. That is patently absurd, and you know it.
quote: Indicate that I have not spent my life investigating these things? No. Indicate that I disagree with you. And you take the childish attitude that since I disagree then I must not have looked.
quote: I discuss with you what comes up on the forum and I do not pull punches. I have no problem with you personally. Or, I didn't until you started posting slander. In fact, I quite respected you.
quote: I appreciate that.
quote: You can make up if until we both rot, but it won't make any of them true. I look for true. I do not gamble.
quote: Not against god, but against human irrationality. ------------------
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John Inactive Member |
quote: It is. The relevance of that to the thread is lost on me. It seems you visited to gather material for your ad hominem.
quote: Why must I repeat this over and over agian? I have been looking for my entire adult life.
quote: I have said numerous times on this forum that I am technically agnostic. I see no evidence for god.
quote: I didn't say that you did.
Avoid any form of misrepresentation. Like this bits about promoting pedophilia?
quote: From what I can tell, pretty much the whole reply I made to you was on target.
quote: Why? When you post garbage I am not going to waste my time. Christians nearly universally propose the same 'faith-experiment' but it isn't really an experiment. Step one: Believe. Step two: look around and see if god is in your life. ie. look for evidence. The trick is that once you perform step one, you ARE GOING to see evidence of God or of whatever else you fill into the blank-- the easter bunny, zorloft the conquerer, my girlfriend. It is a mind-trick, a self-fulfilling system. If you believe, you will see evidence. That is why astrologers still have jobs. That is why card readers can still set up shop.
quote: I hit nearly everything you said in that post to me. That you don't like the implications does not make it trite or ill-considered. For some reason you could not or choose not to respond to my counterpoints and questions. Instead, you chose to directly attack my person. As I see it, your post to me was nothing but an insult my intelligence, right from the get go with 'its because you are not an insider'. That is the easy answer. It is dismissive. You move on to make claims about me that you cannot possible have information to back up. I'm sorry, gene. You don't like your faith examined, but you stepped into this of your own accord. ------------------
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John Inactive Member |
quote: So it is ok to throw reason out the window then? I apply the same rules to any investigation. You want to plead that religion is a special case. It isn't.
quote: You've got this backwards. I made no such decision. I start with what we've got and follow the leads. And what we've got is sensory data. You can make up any number of extra-sensory entities but 1)they make no difference or 2) their presence can be inferred by reference to sensory data.
quote: Prove a negative? You know how ridiculous this claim is. Prove that Valhalla doesn't exist. Ok. Done. Prove that green fairies don't exist. Ok. Done. Prove that... and so on and so on and so on... And with no evidence, how can one prove anything?
quote: Ummm.... no. Do you read these posts?
quote: Right. I won't believe in and worship an entity for no reason. That is damning. Assume I take the leap of faith, how do I choose between your god and any other? There is no evidence, not cross-checking, nothing. Nothing.
[quote][b]You won't give up your lifestyle.[quote][b] What lifestyle is that? The fact is that you don't know what my lifestyle is and so you are just blowing smoke. It is hard to take you seriously.
quote: quote: Trying? It is blatantly self-fulfilling as you preach it. I don't need to try.
quote: You are missing one bit. I can walk outside and find a street WITHOUT having to believe in it first.
quote: But no knowledge of my history. This means that you are again just blowing smoke.
quote: Now this is interesting. You now believe that you know my thoughts better than I. How can I take you seriously?
quote: You fault me because my opinions are contrary to those of most of your acquaintances? ------------------
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John Inactive Member |
quote: I give reasons and I give evidence for I what I believe. Not everything applies to everyone, obviously, but am I to list 5 billion names and note exceptions?
quote: Actually, the beliefs imply things about the people. This isn't an assumption. The belief in a flat earth, for example, implies certain things about the people who believe it. There is nothing I do about this fact. Secondly, I speak from MY experience and the vast majority of Christians I have known fit the descriptions I give. And I have known a lot of Christians. I was raised in the religion. I went to church three or more times a week during my formative years.
quote: I take offense at gene's sometimes patronizing, arrogant and self-righteous attitude and his assertions about my motives and thoughts.
quote: But I didn't call YOU anything, funkie. You and gene seem to have a real problem seperating the abstract from the specific. I criticise the faith and the general mindset required by the followers. You can decide if that portrayal fits your case. BTW... There is a forum on my site. If you have a problem with something you read there, please comment on it there. ------------------
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John Inactive Member |
quote: How does one verify a particular claim without appeal to some form of sensory information? It is that simple. You and gene both insist on formulating the problem as above, but that is a misrepresentation. I'll gladly admit the possibility of non-empirically verifiable something-or-others but how does one verify the ACTUAL existence of such things? It can't be done, in my opinion. Perhaps you can tell me how it can be done? ------------------
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John Inactive Member |
quote: This is your claim, not mine. I haven't said anything about a materialistic universe, only about the verification of statements.
quote: Why not? This really doesn't make sense.
quote: By appeal to an unverifiable entity? I can explain anything I wish in the same manner, but no one would take me seriously. Why should I take you seriously?
quote: Then no peoples prior to christianity have been able to discuss these thing or think these things, as there was no christian worldview from which to borrow?
quote: It is a knowledge claim, but it isn't my knowledge claim. I have explained my position.
quote: Certainly, but I haven't made the assertion you present. I don't make the claim that that the universe is material-- the word doesn't mean a lot to me actually-- nor do I make the claim that only empirically verifiable things exist. The claim I make is that empirical evidence is the only evidence we've got and that believing something without evidence is irrational. ------------------
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John Inactive Member |
quote: It is a claim, forgiven. It is a claim about the nature of reality and further claims about the consequences of those claims, but that is really beside the point since I haven't made the claim that reality is material. I suppose you could call it a definition as well, but that is still beside the point. It is also tautological-- a or not-a-- but again that is beside the point. I don't even believe in matter in any but a sort of metaphorical and colloquial way. You aren't arguing against me with this line of reasoning.
quote: It a function of the brain, assuming the premise of materialism. Things fall down, not up. The critters that figure this out survive, the ones that don't figure it out die. Millions of years of trial and error produce patterns of thought. Logic isn't something mystical. It is really just a condensed version of what works.
quote: I believe strongly that I must drink water to survive. My buddie believes strongly that he must drink drano to survive. Which of us do you think actually will survive? Which do you think is the more reasonable? I don't see why this calculation requires any more than a little bit of experience.
quote: Because we can walk out and check. You say it is raining? I can go look. It isn't complicated. I also notice that you ask very much the question I asked you earlier. How do we distinguish between one unverifiable claim and any other?
quote: Do I appeal to unverifiable entities? Nope.
quote: That isn't hard to come by. But internal consistency doesn't make a theory true. There are many theories that are internally consistent, but don't match observations.
quote: There is nothing self-contradictory about atheism. That fact alone doesn't make it true though.
quote: The obvious has never been proven wrong?
quote: Why would it have to be anything more? Reasoning is a means of coping with the world around us.
quote: Not my opinions or any one else's either. This is where verifiability becomes important. I say the steak is raw. Well, you look and see for yourself. You say that jesus saves... hmmm, just have to take your word for it. I say, no, but Allah saves. By the same logic you have to take my word for it. And surprise, the two religions are mutually exclusive. We find ourself in very short order having to accept contradictory assertions. And there is no way to sort out which is correct.
quote: Logic is a description of how things work in our neck of the woods. Is that material or immaterial? It is a human construct portions of which are likely shared by many animals on earth. Even plants react to changes in the environment, so there must be a simple logic engine running in flora as well-- a turing machine of sorts.
quote: You said that atheists must borrow from the christian worldview in order to discuss 'these things.' It does follow that in the absence of christianity people would not be able to discuss 'these things.'
quote: Not really. Logic is a description like mathematics. It doesn't exist until it is created, though the underlying local and applicable physics do. But I think that may be what you mean.
quote: The christian world view existed as a thing in itself for thousands of year without being verbalized? And humankind borrowed from this ethereal worldview? What possible reasons can you have that this was actually the case?
quote: I believe the original statement in this thread was made by gene while representing what he thought was my reasoning.
quote: I said nothing about truth being gathered from immaterial entities. I said nothing about material entities either.
quote: Again, you are dragging in this concept of material entities. Are you talking about what science considers matter, or about philosophical materialism of some variety? There is a big difference. The scientific version is a description of phenomena. Philosophical materialism is a metaphysics. You have really got to disentangle empiricism and materialism. They are not the same thing. Empirically verifiable things don't have to be material. There doesn't have to BE any material. History is full of philosophers who did not believe such a thing actually exists. And the atoms of science are nothing like the 'matter' spoken of by the more famous philosophical materialists. It is difficult to keep track of what you are actually arguing. Finally, I don't affirm anything about material entities or about non-material ones.
quote: What entity?
quote: Gee. My position is what you just misrepresented. Don't get back
quote: I don't really believe in 'material' except, as I said earlier, in metaphorical sort of way.
quote: I don't know. All I have to deal with is space-time. How can I speculate outside of that? ------------------
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John Inactive Member |
quote: Correct. But once again, you do not represent my position in this matter. 1) I do not make the claim that God has been proven empirically to not exist. This would be a ridiculous undertaking, along the lines of proving the non-existence of Santa Claus. How is it that we know that Santa Claus does not exist? hmmm... there is no evidence for Santa Claus. The Easter Bunny? No evidence for the EB. But is Santa or the EB empirically PROVEN to not exist? Not really. There is no evidence at all. I doubt you have a problem with this reasoning where it regards childhood fantasy, yet you fail to understand the same reasoning when applied to your god?
quote: No. I do not agree. Do you require evidence to not believe in grey aliens among us? Or to not believe in purple elephants? Or Borg in the breakroom? Or fire-breathing dragons? No, you don't require such evidence I'll wager. Why? The same reasons I apply to your god, so please stop pretending to not understand. ------------------
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