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Author Topic:   Semantics of Cults: What's a cult?
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 16 of 37 (257131)
11-05-2005 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Nighttrain
11-05-2005 6:11 PM


Re: Cult/sect
a cult might be made up of people from various beliefs
You mean like someone combining the concepts of sin from hinduism with the jewish faith?
I find it hard to conceive of a group of people getting together to do this, but I can see where a charismatic leader can accomplish this where he has studied several beliefs.
Some people think that {Jesus\the man behind the myth of Jesus} (per their view) went to India in his "unknown" years.
have a extra-biblical source of authority
Not all cults are christian, ergo bible not necessarily a source in any event. Hindu creationism is independent of christian as well (scientific earth is way too young).

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Nighttrain, posted 11-05-2005 6:11 PM Nighttrain has replied

Replies to this message:
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Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3993 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 17 of 37 (257142)
11-05-2005 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by RAZD
11-05-2005 6:30 PM


Re: Cult/sect
Sorry, RAZD, I thought the demolition job was confined to Christian sects/cults. I`ll widen my horizons.

This message is a reply to:
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Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 18 of 37 (257143)
11-05-2005 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by arachnophilia
11-05-2005 3:30 PM


Re: Branches
arach writes:
for instance, lutheranism wasn't a cult, because martin luther wasn't the charismatic leader -- christ was.
Hmm. The problem here is that, accepting an exemption based on Christ being the charismatic leader, no Christian subset could ever qualify as a cult.
It seems to me that Luther fits the cult bill nicely (no aspersions against present-day Lutherans intended). The thunderstorm conversion and the dramatic acts of dissent are pretty classic cult-founding events.
Based on my dim recollection of his personal history, I googled "Luther storm conversion" and selected this quote from the first entry:
Martin Luther was a unique person and may be classified as a genius ” he was an intellect, teacher, preacher, musician, poet, leader of men; he was courageous and had a dynamic personality. In spite of his excellent education, he was rough and crude at times. He was a “bull in a china shop,” and his pen smoked hot against his opposition. It took this kind of explosive, dynamic personality to be a catalyst for the Reformation. Luther was God's man for the hour, and there will probably never be another one quite like him.
Walks like a cult leader, talks like a cult leader...

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Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3993 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 19 of 37 (257160)
11-05-2005 8:03 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Omnivorous
11-05-2005 7:20 PM


Re: Branches
Martin Luther was a unique person and may be classified as a genius ” he was an intellect, teacher, preacher, musician, poet, leader of men; he was courageous and had a dynamic personality. In spite of his excellent education, he was rough and crude at times. He was a “bull in a china shop,” and his pen smoked hot against his opposition. It took this kind of explosive, dynamic personality to be a catalyst for the Reformation. Luther was God's man for the hour, and there will probably never be another one quite like him.
I think that spin-doctor now works for the GOP.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 20 of 37 (257242)
11-06-2005 7:09 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Nighttrain
11-05-2005 8:03 PM


Re: Branches
Dobson.

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 21 of 37 (259237)
11-12-2005 11:28 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Omnivorous
11-05-2005 7:20 PM


Re: Branches
missed this post.
Hmm. The problem here is that, accepting an exemption based on Christ being the charismatic leader, no Christian subset could ever qualify as a cult.
yeah, i think i went back on this claim a while ago. either way, i guess point retracted for now.

אָרַח

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 22 of 37 (259356)
11-13-2005 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
11-05-2005 10:19 AM


Cults Kooks Charlatans and Charismatics
RAZD, God loves you and your colorful O.P. In it, you say:
RAZD writes:
The purpose is to help a Christian distinguish between legitimate mainstream churches and cults. Taking this in a broader context, the question that comes to me is, how can a normal non-church going (& not necessarily christian) person determine when any church (christian or other) crosses the line from proper faith to cult faith?
It seems to me that all churches engage in some of this type of redefinition to distinguish one branch (splinter) of faith from another - Southern Baptist, say, from Protestant or Catholic faiths - and to promote their specific form of {church} more than the {general} faith.
Does that not make these splinter faiths cults? Does that make all 'established' religions cults? My (lack of) knowledge of the differences between these groups and what one could call {core faith} is very limited to non-existent, so I am asking this more for my own interest in the perceptions of others than to provide any.
I once was in a cult. They never associated with other mainstream churches. They met often. They were aloof and were always to themselves. They had a fiery leader...Paul Schell. We all naively thought of him as a super christian...with access to Gods powers.
I did not have a lot of problems with what he preached, but in HOW he acted...(his behavior).
This is what he sounds like:
Apostle Paul Schell

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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 23 of 37 (259401)
11-13-2005 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
11-05-2005 10:19 AM


i think that cult is a word that is simply utilized as an us vs them thought. it's always used wrongly and doesn't really mean anything. i mean sure it's easy to say that those crazy people who wear purple sneakers and drink goats blood are a cult, but it's hard to say where exactly a cult ends and where religion begins.
it's really not a useful, productive word.

This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 24 of 37 (259410)
11-13-2005 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by macaroniandcheese
11-13-2005 5:49 PM


i think that cult is a word that is simply utilized as an us vs them thought
This is emphasising the negative connotations. Cult was used in the quoted article, but there is really little difference between cult and sect in raw meaning (dictionary)
it's really not a useful, productive word.
So anyone calling another faith a cult is drawing an artificial distinction?

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by macaroniandcheese, posted 11-13-2005 5:49 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 25 of 37 (259411)
11-13-2005 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Phat
11-13-2005 1:55 PM


Re: Cults Kooks Charlatans and Charismatics
Don't think I could take much of that voice ...
so is that your avatar?

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 26 of 37 (259412)
11-13-2005 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by RAZD
11-13-2005 6:22 PM


So anyone calling another faith a cult is drawing an artificial distinction?
quite.
i think it's silly. it's like calling someone a bleeding-heart liberal. it's supposed to be so very negative when it really doesn't mean anything. liberalism is theoretically defined as democracy. so, hopefully, we're all liberals. the right uses this word, however, to imprecisely define the great and evil "they".
sure. mormons are weird, a little creepy with their records and alleged practice of posthumous marriage... but they're relatively normal people with relatively normal wants and needs. sure there are crazies among them, but there are crazies among everyone. same thing with pagans. we all search for truth in different ways. maybe some will never find the truth. but by using imprecise namecalling, we accomplish NOTHING.
This message has been edited by brennakimi, 11-13-2005 06:27 PM

And why you think you take a Ho to a Ho-tel
Ho-tell everybody, even the mayor
Reach up in the sky for the Ho-zone layer
Now C'mon playa wants a Ho always
And Ho's neva close, they open like hallways

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 27 of 37 (259422)
11-13-2005 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by macaroniandcheese
11-13-2005 6:27 PM


did you read msg 3?
http://EvC Forum: Semantics of Cults: What's a cult? -->EvC Forum: Semantics of Cults: What's a cult?
to establish ground level before proceeding ...

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 28 of 37 (259601)
11-14-2005 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
11-05-2005 10:19 AM


makes me think of evos
The OP makes me think of evolutionism. I can't tell you how many times discussions have bogged down with evos clinging to semantics arguments, such as what is a species, whether speciation exists, the meaning of transitionals, etc,...and what is disturbing is this is done by evos in a manner that clouds an understanding of the process itself.

This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 29 of 37 (259752)
11-14-2005 10:58 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by randman
11-14-2005 10:49 AM


Re: makes me think of evos
yes, just terrible the way they cling to facts when there is a book that has all the answers eh?

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Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3993 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 30 of 37 (259790)
11-15-2005 1:02 AM


OneDefinition of cult
One definition of cult as classified by Anthony Hoekema, Associated Professor of Systematic Theology as stated in 'Confronting the Cults'-Gordon Lewis involves a five point test:
* Extra-Biblical source of authority
* Denial of justification by grace alone
* Devaluation of Christ
* The group as the exclusive community of the saved
* The group`s central role in eschatology
There ya go, tackle your favourite cult and see how they measure up.

Replies to this message:
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