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Author Topic:   I'm trying: a stairway to heaven?
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 181 of 303 (257031)
11-05-2005 9:43 AM
Reply to: Message 180 by purpledawn
11-05-2005 9:13 AM


Re: Law and Teachings
PD's Matthew 23:13 writes:
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to."
Halleujah. Bang on topic
I've got to nip off to do the Saturday duties. But will get back on this PD.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by purpledawn, posted 11-05-2005 9:13 AM purpledawn has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 182 of 303 (257036)
11-05-2005 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by Legend
11-04-2005 6:04 PM


Eternal Life and Salvation
Hey Legend,
Want to investigate with me? In my dealings with iano on this thread something came to mind. (warning thinking outloud) I think eternal life is something that is dependent on behavior, but salvation isn't. Not sure how to say what I'm thinking. Read minds???
We noted that when Jesus was asked how to obtain or inherit eternal life, he gave a list from the commandments/law. None of which were believing God is one or loving God.
Also we note that the righteous will go to eternal life.
Righteous=observing divine laws
Mt 13:49
"So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous,
Mt 25:46
"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
As I noted in Message 169 there were righteous people before the death of Jesus.
Lu 1:6
They were both righteous in the sight of God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and requirements of the Lord.
Even the Pharisees were considered righteous.
Jesus did not consider everyone to be a sinner.
Mr 2:17
And hearing this, Jesus said to them, "It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick; I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
Salvation=deliverence, safety
In the OT we see God delivering the nation and individuals from their enemies or from difficult circumstances. It wasn't necessarily because they deserved it. Obviously God's choice.
In the story of Zaccheus
19:9
And Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because he, too, is a son of Abraham.
19:10
"For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost."
Jesus saved him from sin in the sense that Zaccheus repented and changed his ways. He was now in a righteous state. Individual salvation.
Jesus came to bring them back to right behavior, which includes learning to repent and ask forgiveness as well as to forgive.
Mt 6:14-15
"For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
"But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.
Repentance is key to returning to a state of righteousness.
So if the synoptics truly provide us with what Jesus said and Jesus spoke the truth, then only the righteous will receive eternal life and the list Jesus gave the rich man is what is necessary to be in a righteous state and inherit eternal life.
IMO the salvation discussed by Jesus and true Pauline epistles deals with saving the Jews from oppression, not negative judgment.
Tentative Conclusion: Right behavior puts us in a state of righteousness and right before God. If we are in a state of righteousness at death or at the time of God's judgment, then we will inherit eternal life. If not, then personal destruction.
I don't see that believing in Jesus guarantees eternal life either. If you are in an unrighteous state at death or the time of judgment, I don't think you get the E ticket.
But right behavior does not guarantee God will deliver a person or nation from difficult circumstances. God does that as he chooses.
What do you think Legend, besides that it is long?
Please forgive the length.

Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission. -Eleanor Roosevelt-

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by Legend, posted 11-04-2005 6:04 PM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by Legend, posted 11-06-2005 4:33 PM purpledawn has replied
 Message 186 by iano, posted 11-07-2005 5:52 AM purpledawn has replied

Legend
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 183 of 303 (257328)
11-06-2005 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by purpledawn
11-05-2005 10:10 AM


Re: Eternal Life and Salvation
Hi PD,
purpledawn writes:
Please forgive the length
after going through some of Mr Ex Nihilo's posts, yours seems like a footnote
purpledawn writes:
Not sure how to say what I'm thinking. Read minds???
not yet - but I'll try to follow your syllogism anyway.
purpledawn writes:
Jesus did not consider everyone to be a sinner.
Yup. Paul's the one whos starts talking about everyone being born in sin, not Jesus.
purpledawn writes:
So if the synoptics truly provide us with what Jesus said and Jesus spoke the truth, then only the righteous will receive eternal life and the list Jesus gave the rich man is what is necessary to be in a righteous state and inherit eternal life.
My take on Jesus's message is pretty much along the lines of your conclusion. Jesus draws a line between the outwardly righteous and the truely righteous
The line is drawn based on how the person behaves but also the intent of the behaviour, e.g. forgiveness, as you point out (Matt 6:14-15).
It seems that Zacharias and his wife are classed as righteous because of their actions, in Luke 1:6.
It also seems that Jesus can distinguish between appearance of righteousness and true righteousness:
"Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity." (Matt 23:28).
So, yes, I'd say only the genuinely righteous will gain eternal life.
purpledawn writes:
IMO the salvation discussed by Jesus and true Pauline epistles deals with saving the Jews from oppression, not negative judgment.
I'm not so sure about that. Couple of questions: do you think that eternal life = salvation ? do you think that salvation in the synoptics applies specifically to saving the Jews from oppression, or does it apply to others under different circumstances ?
It's also interesting -to me- that Jesus exemplifies a Samaritan as a role model. It's not the parable of the Good Jew, it's that of the Good Samaritan. The Samaritan was under no obligation to uphold any law but he is shown to be truely righteous.
do you think the Samaritan would gain salvation / eternal life ?
purpledawn writes:
Tentative Conclusion: Right behavior puts us in a state of righteousness and right before God. If we are in a state of righteousness at death or at the time of God's judgment, then we will inherit eternal life. If not, then personal destruction.
could you tell me what you base the 'personal destruction' alternative on ?
purpledawn writes:
I don't see that believing in Jesus guarantees eternal life either. If you are in an unrighteous state at death or the time of judgment, I don't think you get the E ticket.
Generally agree, though I think the 'unrighteous state' needs more definition.
purpledawn writes:
But right behavior does not guarantee God will deliver a person or nation from difficult circumstances. God does that as he chooses.
So, right behaviour will gain you eternal life (Matt 25:31-46), but not necessarily a happy corporeal one. Am I following or have I lost you ?

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by purpledawn, posted 11-05-2005 10:10 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 184 of 303 (257368)
11-06-2005 9:11 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by Legend
11-06-2005 4:33 PM


Re: Eternal Life and Salvation
quote:
So, right behaviour will gain you eternal life (Matt 25:31-46), but not necessarily a happy corporeal one. Am I following or have I lost you?
That seems to be the concensus from the scriptures. As you said, the genuinely righteous will inherit eternal life.
quote:
could you tell me what you base the 'personal destruction' alternative on?
On the day of judgment either one gets eternal life or permanent death. The wicked will be destroyed. I explain it better in the Hell thread.
quote:
do you think that eternal life = salvation?
That's what I'm investigating. Per the scriptures, on the day of judgment actions and sincerity are judged to determine whether we inherit eternal life or not.
I think people present it as being saved from eternal death and therefore salvation, but I don't see that the scriptures support this idea.
I feel that Jesus presented salvation as getting people to repent because the day of judgment was at hand. But they had to repent. I don't see that eternal life is granted in spite of ones actions.
Maybe Jesus and Paul aren't talking of the same type of salvation.
quote:
do you think that salvation in the synoptics applies specifically to saving the Jews from oppression, or does it apply to others under different circumstances?
Six of one and half a dozen of the other. That's where the NT gets murky.
Now the salvation that the Jews seemed to expect, per the OT, was a physical deliverance from oppression. God's kingdom on earth. Some NT verses reference this in Luke.
The healing of the sick etc. seems to be saving people from their circustances.
quote:
do you think the Samaritan would gain salvation / eternal life?
Eternal life if he was in a righteous state at the time of death.
quote:
Generally agree, though I think the 'unrighteous state' needs more definition.
I'll have to get into this one tomorrow, but I think is the area where we get into the "trying" scenerio.
Tomorrow Unrighteousness...

Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission. -Eleanor Roosevelt-

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by Legend, posted 11-06-2005 4:33 PM Legend has not replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 185 of 303 (257414)
11-07-2005 5:29 AM
Reply to: Message 180 by purpledawn
11-05-2005 9:13 AM


Re: Law and Teachings
purple dawns Matthew 23:13 writes:
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to."
Had a read of this over the weekend PD and a couple of things occurred to me. The first, which kind of deals with the issue at hand, is that the word 'trying' isn't associated with any particular action indicating works or good deeds or following laws etc. Just 'trying'.
It got reminded me of other such directions which could be associated with salvation "Strive to enter throught the narrow gate" is one that springs to mind. In this Matthew passage trying is related to "those" who are trying.
Certain people are trying to get to heaven. Not all but some number. Who would they be these people? People, in the first instance who believe there is a God and there is a heaven it would seem.
But there is only one way to get to heaven - through Jesus. "Nobody comes to the Father except through me" a he says. No method which excludes Jesus is going to work. So we have certain people who are aware of God and heaven and are 'trying' and 'striving' to get there. And Jesus is the only way.
Jesus in this passge is railing at the Pharisees. He is saying that not only are they making it difficult by their actions but they are actually preventing people from getting to heaven. And what the Pharisees are is religious. They are law followers (or thought they were) and proponants of the idea that following laws is how you get to heaven. We can't read that here but that we know about them. Not only did they opposed Jesus but they pressurized people (with threat of expulsion from the temple (blind mans parents) to keep them away from Jesus. In trying to keep people from Jesus they were keeping them from the very person they needed to get them into heaven in the first place.
Not that the Pharisees are soley to blame. Jesus is only condeming their part - not the guilt of the person who goes by Phariseeism (or our modern day equivilent: Religion). Whilst a publican may be railed at for serving a man too much drink, the man himself is too responsible
That's my take on it PD, but like I say above, 'trying' here is not related to any law-keeping efforts so doesn't to my mind deal with the request of the OP

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by purpledawn, posted 11-05-2005 9:13 AM purpledawn has not replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 186 of 303 (257415)
11-07-2005 5:52 AM
Reply to: Message 182 by purpledawn
11-05-2005 10:10 AM


Re: Eternal Life and Salvation
PD writes:
Even the Pharisees were considered righteous. Jesus did not consider everyone to be a sinner.
The only people who reckoned the Pharisees were righteous were the Pharisees themselves and people. Jesus didn't. Their righteousness, their own righteousness through following the laws they did, was not going to get them to heaven ("unless your righteousness exceeds that of the pharisees...")
Lu 1:6 writes:
They were both righteous in the sight of God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and requirements of the Lord.
Righteous in the sight of God - not man.
The contrast?
Self-righteousness ("all your righteousness are as filthy rags)
Jesus' rightouesness given to us ( "but now a righteousness from God is revealed which is by faith from first to last)
It would be interesting to see what evidence there is for righteous (in the sight of God especially) meaning a person doesn't sin.
It would also be interesting to get your view as to the reasoning behind the view that Pauls writing can be considered as less relevant that Matthew or Luke etc.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by purpledawn, posted 11-05-2005 10:10 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by purpledawn, posted 11-08-2005 7:19 AM iano has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 187 of 303 (257416)
11-07-2005 6:50 AM
Reply to: Message 183 by Legend
11-06-2005 4:33 PM


Out of Gas: A Modern Parable
A man was driving on a country road after dark and ran out of gas between two farm houses. He turned on his flashers and pulled a gas can out of his trunk and headed towards the closest farm house.
When he knocked on the door, the homeowner's 18 year old daughter answered the door. The man explained that he had run out of gas and needed a ride to the nearest gas station.
The daughter was home alone with no car, but her family did have a large gas tank used for the farm. The daughter told the man she was unable to drive him to town, but she could fill up the gas can.
The gas tank was secured with a combination lock. The daughter twisted the dial through the correct combinations, but the lock wouldn't open. She tried again, but the lock wouldn't open. She then told the man the combination and he tried, but the lock still wouldn't open.
The daughter apologized for not being able to open the lock, but the man to her neighbor across the road, who was an Elder in her church, would surely fill the gas can from his farm tank. The man thanked her for her efforts and walked across the road to the neighbors.
When the man knocked on the Elder's door he did not receive the help he expected. The Elder would not drive him to town and fearing that the man would come back later to steal gas, told him that his gas tank was empty even though it wasn't. He turned the man away.
The daughter felt bad that she couldn't help the man and told her father about the incident. Her father immediately replaced the combination lock with a key lock, so that it would no longer be a hinderance to helping others.
__________________________________________________________
This parable and others will come into play when I address righteousness and unrighteousness.

Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission. -Eleanor Roosevelt-

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by Legend, posted 11-06-2005 4:33 PM Legend has not replied

Replies to this message:
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iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 188 of 303 (257436)
11-07-2005 8:13 AM
Reply to: Message 175 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
11-05-2005 4:13 AM


Re: Jesus gave directions
mrx writes:
But because he corrupted the law itself, the father who he sinned against no longer had any authority to release him by "forgiving him".
There is to my mind a bit of a problem with the analogy itself. It is not the fathers place to administer justice. Both the graphic artist and the cop have sinned against justice. They have committed an illegal act in the first place with their driving leading to death. And justice will deal with both of them. It would have been better to have the father being an RCMP member which would more accurately reflect God as both the person sinned against and the person who administers justice.
Now the RCMP/father arrives as justice and in possession of the full picture (as God would be). He is faced with two people; neither of which has not followed the law (thou shalt drive responsibly). One has denied his guilt. His subsequent twisting of the law compounds the problem. This will be taken into account when justice is administered. But justice is on the scene for one reason: the original law breaking - the driving. All that happens is subsequent and related to the original crime. The RCMP/father knows what happened, despises the carelessness compounded by subsequent corruption and pours out his full wrath on the law-breaking cop
The graphic artist, who accepts his guilt in breaking the law, is repentant. The RCMP/father decides to forgive. And he can because:
a) he is the one sinned against both as father and justice.
b) he, as forgiver, pays the full price himself - as forgiveness must
c) he, as justice, is satisfied with the price. Only he, as justice can decide whether the price is sufficient in order to satisfy his justice.
The RCMP member/father can apply forgiveness or justice. And he does apply it - on the basis of the persons reaction to their crime.
It wasn't his "right" to forgive. He "had" to forgive in order to fulfill the law of the gospel.
One of our central disagreements is about this very point. I say (via Paul) that a man is freed from law (being able to condemn) and you say follow the law or condemnation results. Not every word Jesus spoke is the gospel no more than every word Paul spoke is the gospel.
A man has a right to apply "eye for an eye" he is not breaking Gods Law by doing so. Jesus, as he did with anger and adultery, expounded the law. "Remember" he says "An eye for an eye will be applied back to you so think before you judge or condemn. Forgive and you will get eye for an eye. Don't forgive and you will get eye for an eye. Judge and you will be judged, don't judge and you won't be.
This is not gospel. This is expounding and explaining how Gods Laws work. The only thing one can do reading this as it is is to shiver in fear. No man will go through his life without judging, no one will go through his life always forgiving. There is no warrant for deciding that try is sufficient. Jesus plainly says what will happen
if you don't forgive
Whats the point in concentrating on sins that are forgiven because I forgive? Fine, they are gone, past, done and dusted. Its the sins that aren't forgiven because a person hasn't forgiven that will be dealt with.
Where's the Good News in that?
PS: have you got a step-by-step guide as to your view on the 'whole story' similar to the one I gave a few posts back. Not by analogy but just plain english. Like I said - not necessarily for debate but just to see how you view the mechanics. If it such that 'try' will only be shown by seeing the overall workings then it would be good to deal with it in that way. What do you think?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 11-05-2005 4:13 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has not replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 189 of 303 (257438)
11-07-2005 8:19 AM
Reply to: Message 183 by Legend
11-06-2005 4:33 PM


Re: Eternal Life and Salvation
Legend writes:
Yup. Paul's the one whos starts talking about everyone being born in sin, not Jesus.
"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" ?
...or maybe he was only talking to the mob with the stones in that time and place
This message has been edited by iano, 07-Nov-2005 01:20 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by Legend, posted 11-06-2005 4:33 PM Legend has not replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 190 of 303 (257454)
11-07-2005 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 175 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
11-05-2005 4:13 AM


Re: Jesus gave directions
mrx writes:
How is what the off-duty police officer did in this hypothetical situation any different from how you are presenting salvation for only Christians?
The difference is the lack of corruption. The offender (the Christian) has, like everyone, committed sin. And every sin must recieve the penalty due. But if the person accepts the gift offered, God transfers the punishment due to the person, over onto Christ. Grace: Gods Riches At Christs Expense as it were. God, to go back to the original analogy, pays the fine of the person who has become a member of his family.
The problem with your corruption analogy is that the cop wasn't going to have to pay the price for his crime. But neither was anyone else. The crime just sat there. Justice wouldn't have been done
What is the method of forgiveness as you understand it Mr X. Which sins are forgiven a person and how does this happen. And which sins are not forgiven and what happens a person who has unforgiven sin?
This message has been edited by iano, 07-Nov-2005 02:33 PM
This message has been edited by iano, 07-Nov-2005 02:34 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 11-05-2005 4:13 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 191 of 303 (257478)
11-07-2005 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 183 by Legend
11-06-2005 4:33 PM


Righteous vs Unrighteous
My view or mindset of Jesus agrees with that of Brad Young in his book "The Parables".
Jesus is a religious leader within first-centry Jewish society who is calling the people to spiritual revitalization, which will result in social and economic reform. But he is preaching traditional Jewish values.
In the OT I find that the word translated righteous means: just, lawful, righteous.
Unrighteous means: trouble, wickedness, sorrow
In the NT the word translated righteous means: righteous, observing divine laws.
Unrighteous means: descriptive of one who violates or has violated justice
__________________________________________
Considering true righteousness and true unrighteousness I would equate them with law abiding and nonlaw abiding. IMO the unrighteous referred to in the Bible are those who actually break the laws of the legal system and are considered criminals.
Now I do feel that the Bible also contains "mud slinging." Innerfaith battles.
Mt 5:19
"Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Annuling lesser commandments, which would mean people weren't following them, doesn't necessarily revoke your E ticket. So there are degrees of breakage.
So in the parable I wrote in Message 187, neither person would be cast into the unrighteous club even though both failed to help the stranded driver. The daughter tried to help, but was hindered by props. The Elder was hindered by fear and didn't even try to help, but I don't feel this puts him in the criminal category.
The Elder is however the type of religious leader that Jesus addressed several times, who would give when it was visible to others and beneficial to themselves, but not when it was unseen or unbeneficial. That is what I call "works." Calculated actions to benefit the doer.
Does this sound like an accurate understanding of true righteousness and unrighteousness?

Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission. -Eleanor Roosevelt-

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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 192 of 303 (257483)
11-07-2005 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by purpledawn
11-07-2005 11:46 AM


On Intent
IMHO, yes, your description is both pertinent and correct.
The issue of works seems to revolve far more around why things are done then what is done. If you do good to be known as a dogooder or to earn praise or respect, then the praise or respect you get here on earth is all that will be returned. If you do good to earn Salvation, then you will find that it cannot be purchased at any price.
It is also very appropriate to the issue of trying as opposed to succeeding.
The daughter failed, but she made the effort. The fact that she tried to help the person IMHO is the important point and would be regarded as living up to the Two Great Commandments.
She has "Loved others as she loves herself." She put herself in the position of the stranger and tried to act as she would like others to act if she had been the one out of gas. And that action is in itself, loving GOD.
The Elder failed miserably. The fear of the stranger returning later to steal gas is simply posthoc rationalization. The Elder never followed the Commandment and asked himself, "If I were the one out of gas, how would I like to be treated?" He failed there and by doing so failed to love GOD.
I believe that the daughter would definitely fall among the Righteous based on her attempt, the fact that she tried.
I disagree though about the Elder. While I believe that it's likely that such behavior would be forgiven during any judgement, it would certainly count as demerits and would be weighed in the balance against the rest of the Elders life.
I would ask you to consider two other possible scenarios.
First, if after leaving the Elder's house, the stranger walked over to another farm house, one owned by an Atheist, who behaved just as the daughter did.
Second, instead of the owner of the third house being an Atheist, suppose he was a Muslim? If a Muslim behaved exactly as the daughter did, what effect would it have on your analysis?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by purpledawn, posted 11-07-2005 11:46 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 193 of 303 (257496)
11-07-2005 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by jar
11-07-2005 12:27 PM


Re: On Intent
quote:
The issue of works seems to revolve far more around why things are done then what is done.
Exactly!
quote:
First, if after leaving the Elder's house, the stranger walked over to another farm house, one owned by an Atheist, who behaved just as the daughter did.
Second, instead of the owner of the third house being an Atheist, suppose he was a Muslim? If a Muslim behaved exactly as the daughter did, what effect would it have on your analysis?
I think either would still be credited as righteous and eligible for eternal life if their life continued in that pattern. Jesus didn't stress belief to the rich man.

Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission. -Eleanor Roosevelt-

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by jar, posted 11-07-2005 12:27 PM jar has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 194 of 303 (257659)
11-08-2005 5:29 AM
Reply to: Message 187 by purpledawn
11-07-2005 6:50 AM


The GI Can: A Modern Parable
In a Marine Corps boot camp female barracks each evening after sundown, the DI (drill instructor) reviewed the day's events and asked for two volunteers to empty the GI can (trash can). The GI can was required to be emptied before the women changed into their PJ's (sleeping attire), since they were not allowed outside the barracks in their PJ's without proper covering.
Eager to gain favor from the DI, several volunteered each evening. Over several weeks it was usually the same group of women who jumped to volunteer.
One evening the DI didn't ask for volunteers. All the women forgot about emptying the GI can. As they stood at the end of their racks (beds) in their PJ's awaiting final inspection before retiring, someone spied the full GI can.
If the can was not emptied before the DI returned, the entire barracks would suffer consquences. Two volunteers were needed to empty the GI can. The usual volunteers remained silent.
To take the GI can outside after dark in PJ's, two women would need to put on their rain ponchos. The rain ponchos are required to be precisely folded, rolled, and attached to the end of the rack before evening inspection. So even though the volunteers empty the GI can before the DI returns and the group is safe, the volunteers could still suffer personal demerits for failing inspection if they didn't succeed in properly attaching their rain ponchos.
Finally two women volunteered, who had never volunteered for the job before. They put on their rain ponchos and emptied the GI can. As soon as they entered the squadbay, several women helped them remove their ponchos and fold them as required. Quickly they ran to their racks and attached the properly folded ponchos. Just as they finished, the DI entered. They both passed inspection.
This message has been edited by purpledawn, 11-08-2005 05:29 AM

Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission. -Eleanor Roosevelt-

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by purpledawn, posted 11-07-2005 6:50 AM purpledawn has not replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 195 of 303 (257660)
11-08-2005 5:46 AM
Reply to: Message 192 by jar
11-07-2005 12:27 PM


Re: On Intent
jar writes:
She has "Loved others as she loves herself." She put herself in the position of the stranger and tried to act as she would like others to act if she had been the one out of gas. And that action is in itself, loving GOD.
Firstly she didn't try anything. She did it. She loved her neighbour as herself. Whether or not a particular result was obtained matters not. She didn't fail in any way to love her neighbour as herself. Certainly the car driver would not have considered her to have done any less that he would have wanted her too. Success with flying colours I reckon.
And the elder failed as miserably as she passed.
The question is, what happens next week when the girl is at college and sneaks a peak at her classmates work in math because shes weak at math and needs the grade to pass the year? Where she doesn't even try but has a goal and does whats required to achieve it
Righteous action this today, unrighteous action next week. All the way through her life. Where does she end up: heaven or hell?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by jar, posted 11-07-2005 12:27 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by purpledawn, posted 11-08-2005 6:40 AM iano has not replied
 Message 197 by purpledawn, posted 11-08-2005 6:44 AM iano has replied

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