By their fruits shall ye know them. (re: Fundamentalists and the environment)

A couple of things spring to mind:a) that someone is called an evangelical or a Christian doesn't mean they are indeed a Christianb) As far as a Christian is concerned, the highest priority is that people get saved. Everthing else comes or should come second. If it was a choice for example, between a system that retained teaching God in the classroom vs a system which, in promoting secularism, eliminated all such teaching then the former would likely get more support - for all the other downsidesc) A Christian knows that the world is under the dominion of satan and is headed for a showdown. They would see it as illusion, the idea that man, by government is going to save the planetThis particular Christian sees a world already gone over the side of a cliff and heading towards the rocks. There are global forces at work which not even America can stop. And they all point to massively increasing consumption, China and India (with their millions trained-by-tv to be budding materialists like us) coming on stream, dwindling resources. More is what people want - not less. Pulling the brakes when your over the edge is a pointless exercise.The world system is based on ever increasing growth. Spannering around the edges whilst retain such a system is all any government can do. Sound bites as to what one would 'like to do' is not going to change that. That a particular government stands on an enviromental platform yet remains powerless to apply the brakes to the problem of human greed, cruelty and shortsightedness is hardly a basis for chosing it.Man has never been any different. A liberal government won't change that fact

Hi Omni....Don;t know if this is more on topic than before. Here goes as I see it Communist leaders with dachas, fine caviar, large automobiles etc. They are called communists but they aren't in fact. "By their fruits ye shall know them". If a peoples individual and collective behavior screams "contradiction" then contradiction is possibly a part of the issue. 95% of people in Ireland identify themselves as Christian. But they have no interest in God in any way, shape or form as far as I can tell. Christian in name only as far as can be seen. I've got a spare if you want. $8.99 plus post and packaging (only a faux-leather cover though ) Fair enough. But then the problem would better be described in such a way. "People profess to be Christians but they act in ways which seem completely at odds with the behaviour one would expect of a Christian". That they aren't, in fact, Christians would be one possible factor to be taken into account... I read of a speaker in one of your two houses who died a while back. I think he was a democrat. But the flood of praise of him came from both sides of the divide. Both sides set aside their emnity to acknowledge him as an unright, fair and honest individual, who didn't let his politics get in the way of his integrity. The flavor of the piece was striking by it's very rarity. A more general truism seems to be that Power Corrupts. A person who is a genuine Christian is subject to its corruptive power as is a non-Christian. The biblical exhortation "not to be of the world (and it's ways)" wasn't given for no reason. It is very easy to lose sight of the ball and to be drawn into the worlds way of doing things: to seek peer approval, to worry about getting voted in again, to blind oneself to the truth and to settle for a hollowed out version of it. To be precisely as Jesus isn't. Jesus was incorruptable - we're notWhat he did resulted in his death. What the apostles did resulted, according to tradition - in their deaths. A Christian is told many times in the bible to expect persecution if they stand for Christ. In America it may not mean physical death. But it may mean death to peer approval, death to political career, death to power, death to influence. Big business is a powerful and voracious beast. And anyone who decides to stand up to it will be exposed to the full fury. Survival is not a given.That many wilt in the face of it is hardly surprising. We can't all be Davids... If it was theirs to grant then fine. If not then what they think doesn't matter I'm afraid...You point to a time when government could make big differences. That was then and this is now. Resources are dwindling, appetites have increased. The world is a more competitive place. Business has gotten bigger and more powerful, people more materialistic.The concept that Government is free to dictate what business can and cannot do is a fallacy. Clean air is important - everyone recognises it. If it could be achieved without cost to the economy then it would be done. But it ain't that simple. Polluting processes are far cheaper to run (in the short term - the term which politicians find impossible to ignore) than clean ones. America has to compete with countries which it didn't have to before. Countries which pose a serious economic threat and which don't give a fiddlers about the environment. It cannot do so by adding untold cost onto its manufacturing industries. A Christian is as beholden to this reality as anyone else. Priority? The churches have many battles which didn't exist in the way the did before. You referred back to a time of simple days and home made apple pie. These days took place existed in a completely different environment (sic) than the one that exists today. The Christian world has left its Christian ethos behind to a very large extent. We live now in a secular, post-modern environment, where Christian values are lip-serviced by the community as opposed to being held as a true guide to how one should live. Not only in America but all throughout the Christian world. I read recently that Britain, if things continue as they are (small or no families in the 'white/'Christian' and typically large families in the ethnic/muslim communities) will, in 30 years or so be a predominantly Muslim country. The same is occurring in France and Germany. It is far harder to exert Christian influence in a world that has turned away from that as a core, given value system. And far harder for a Christian to hold onto to them.

A very good point. You pays your money.... Everyone knows that oil is on the way out, everyone knows the the air is being polluted. Yet they choose a government who doesn't prioritise doing something about it. I sincerely doubt that the only people who voted Bush in were evangelicals 'Dominion' over doesn't mean 'ownership'. God owns it, satan has dominion over it. Temporarily. Resistance not futile and should be engaged in, and the victory is already a sure thing. But where you fight your battle depends on where the leader says you should fight it. No point in fighting futile battles. The front is largely a spiritual one - although that can be given practical hands and feet. Slavery was the work of satan. It had all his characteristics: greed, cruelty, deceit. The abolition of slavery (in England at any rate) was the practical result of Christianity against the work of satan Absolutely, but like I say, it needs to be approached from the right way. There are many ways to tackle alchol abuse for instance: you can send the person to a psychologist or tatoo a sign on the persons forehead and forbid drink to be sold to the person. Alcholics Anonymous works by using the gospel in an applied sense. It fights the battle in the spiritual realm - at its source - even when the are practical outworkings of it. Get the tactics right and the rest follows. But to go into battle purely on practical and forget the root of the problem doesn't work as well If you were satan, would not the best place to aim your mortars be the enemies headquarters. Look at the dissention and in-fighting in the church, look at the child abuse that is coming to light, look at the actions of the church over many centuries. A holistic and unified body it most certainly is not. It never has been. It is showing all the signs of being subjected to divide and conquer strategy. Satan uses our tendency to sin to 'good' effect. That's not to say there isn't much light out there - there is. But to expect the church, as a body, to rise up as one, is not on the cards at the moment. We can resist - but he is not without his methods. And he is a vicious opponent Again on an individual basis I imagine Christians have more pressing concerns:early sexualisation of children
dangers on the internet
the lure of materialism
the lure of secularism
the lure of alternative religions
the lure of drugs
access to education and primary healthcare.Environment is not unimportant but when there are screaming immediates its hard to keep your eye on the ball of the more remote issues. I imagine folk of all shades will vote for the goverment who seem to say they will deal with immediate concerns. And any potential government worth its salt will know and utilise knowledge of those base fears to good effect. Getting into government is big business afterall: power is a much more desirable bottom line than money. And if you can manipulate a large section of the voting population by ceding some relatively harmless (to your own goals) issues to them then so much the better. Its not exactly rocket science. More like scratching backs..p.s. Get well soonThis message has been edited by iano, 10-Nov-2005 06:49 PM

Thy will be done...