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Author Topic:   The beginning of the jihad in Europe?
CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6472 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 4 of 301 (257624)
11-07-2005 11:32 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by crashfrog
11-07-2005 4:51 PM


Socio-economic reasons don't always explain
In fact, there has been very little discrimination against French Muslims. And even if there had been, many other immigrant groups have, ultimately, prospered in western democracies, including, France, despite that.
Were it the case that only in france did we see Islamic violence against a western state, then we migth wonder what is situation specific. But, in fact, we have seen 9/11, 3/3 and 7/7. We have seen serial acts of terrorism against Western targets going back to 1978. We see westerners blown up in Bali and shot in Egypt. We see churches burned in Pakistan, and Hindu worshippers slaughtered in India. we see school children massacred in Russia. And on and on. One can attempt to rationalize, even justify, each incident. But when taken on the whole, a pattern emerges, one not even the french are now willing to overlook.
Westerners who are oh so wise, nuanced and pc, (and inevitably leftist), are always at the ready to explain how we, somehow, are responsible for all this violence aimed at us.
Worthwhile reading on this:
Inside Every Progressive Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out - David Horowitz
Page not found - Chicago Sun-Times
And this, which i;ll copy in full because i haven't a link:
The Real Global Virus
The plague of Islamism keeps on spreading.
by Victor Davis Hanson
National Review Online


Edited out huge cut and paste...
Page not found | National Review
Not that hard to find a link..took all of 5 seconds
Please try a little harder in the future. - The Queen
This message has been edited by AdminAsgara, 11-07-2005 10:40 PM

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 Message 111 by Philip, posted 11-09-2005 2:46 PM CanadianSteve has replied

CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6472 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 6 of 301 (257634)
11-08-2005 12:20 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by randman
11-07-2005 4:46 PM


It is not the state's job to provide jobs and opportunities per se, unless we're speaking of a communist state. Rather it is the state's job to stay out of the way and let the invisible hand work. Not that the state should not ensure good elementary and high school education. Not that the state shouldn't ensure fair labour and work environment laws. But, ultimately, it is up to the individual to make something of him or herself. Millions upon millions of immigrants to various western nations have gotten themselves educated, worked hard and succeeded. Many set the conditions for their children to do better than they. Many had to learn a new tongue. Many are of religious faiths not of the majority in their new land. In other words, it is pointless, self-defeating, even antithetical to liberal democracy, to blame the state rather individuals for their lot. If french Muslims have, on the whole, failed, then we and they should ask why they, not we, not the state, are responsible. Is it because they keep their girls and women semi-prisoners, refusing to allow them to attend post secondary school? To marry whom they will? To work outside the home? Is it because they refuse to assimilate, feeling that they are in frnace to take it over from within as per Allah's will? Ist because they hold to non liberal democratic values, adn archaic ones at that? After all, many of the rioters have been shouting Allah Akbar, spoken of their towns as "occupied" by French police, ordered police to stay away (as they have for a long time), and so on.
Undoubtedly, france's socilaist hand has reduced economic opportunity. And yet, Polish, Hungarian, Chinese and almost all other immigrant groups have all done fairly well, roughly equal to or better than native frenchmen. The question, then, is this: what is different about the Muslim population?

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 Message 9 by randman, posted 11-08-2005 12:35 AM CanadianSteve has replied

CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6472 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 8 of 301 (257636)
11-08-2005 12:31 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by CanadianSteve
11-07-2005 11:32 PM


A prominent psychiatrist explains why Muslims assimilate less

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CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6472 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 10 of 301 (257638)
11-08-2005 12:39 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by randman
11-08-2005 12:25 AM


Re: well, I agree
Islam has been at war with itself since its very birth. Principally, there are those who believe in the Sword Verses as written, and those who argue that there is a contexual explanation for them. The former believe more in martial Jihad; the latter more in spiritual Jihad. The division is roughly 50/50. And so for every imam who tells the rioters that they are committing sin, there is a counterpart egging them on. (There are many reports of imams doing exactly this, and of much coordination.) There are also those martial jihadists who know that it is bad strategy to overplay their hand before it is too late for the french to prevent a demographic takeover. They, therefore, want this rioting to stop before the french realize what disaster is foreboding: their very extinguishment in two generations or so, and actually do something about it.
The supreme irony is this: Muslims in the west will be more likely to truly and fully assimilate as liberal democrats once their homelands become liberal democracies. Until then, they see it as Islam always has: them and the infidel rest, whom allah has ordered conquered, subjugated, converted and ruled under a caliphate.

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CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6472 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 11 of 301 (257639)
11-08-2005 12:42 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by randman
11-08-2005 12:35 AM


Funny you should say that

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CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6472 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 19 of 301 (257723)
11-08-2005 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Phat
11-08-2005 3:16 AM


Why the Islamic world, and not the Christian one
He's a psychiatrist, actually, not that that matters. I agree with you that Christians are different (I say because of Christianity and the liberal democracies they created). In virtually every nation on Earth where there is a majority or substantial minority Muslim population, there is serious conflict within and without, between Muslims and non Muslims of any faith: Bhuddists, Jews, Hindus, Christians, etc., even minority Muslims. That is hardly true of Christian nations. We do not see Christians beheading Muslim girls, burning moques, outlawing other religions, flying planes into Mecca and so on. What's more, even in a nation like the US, where there is a relatively small population of Muslims, three prominent leaders of America's most important Muslim organization, CAIR, have been jailed for terrorist related activities. The founder of CAIR publicly stated that Islam is here to takeover from within and make the Koran the US constitution.
I mentioned above liberal democracy being one reason, as it is. The Christian world was pretty barbaric and no less violence-oriented until democracy arose. And yet there's still a difference, one that may explain why liberal democracy arose in Christian nations and not Islamic ones: Jesus himself, and his message, are entirely peaceful. In contrast, Mohammed was a pedophile, polyganist, slave owner and warrior, and his message is consistent with that. Not that i deny the peaceful and spiritual side to Islam. But the contrast between the two is reflected now, as it has always been, in the two Islamic camps: the martial jihadis and and the peaceful ones. This accounts for why not only non Muslims are the victims of the Jihadis, but most Muslim women and genuinely peaceful and tolerant Muslims of both genders.

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CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6472 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 20 of 301 (257724)
11-08-2005 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Silent H
11-08-2005 5:19 AM


Re: A prominent psychiatrist explains why Muslims assimilate less
It's like you're imprisoned to equivalence arguments, so trapped by this conventional cultural reflex that you can't escape it for even one bit of light and truth.
BTW, Israel was reborn after less than 2,000 years, not 3,000, and it was not reborn a biblical era nation, but a modern day liberal democracy.

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CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6472 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 21 of 301 (257725)
11-08-2005 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by ohnhai
11-08-2005 7:28 AM


France deserves to be bashed
England, The US, Australia 9and sadly, not Canada anymore), have beyond all stood for democracy and freedom. Ultimately, they have put ideals ahead of immediate self-interest. Not France. Its international behaviour is purely cyncical and appeases immediate self-interest. That is why France sold out a democracy, Israel, and sold out its alliance with the US in the 70's. France made a deal with the devil, for which it is now paying. That deal was with the Arab world. In exchange for massive business deals and geopolitical influence vis a vis the US, it agreed to vote with Arabs and the Islamic world at the UN, both against Israel and the US. It also agreed to take in masses of Muslim immigrants and not try to assimilate them. And so france burns, its very democracy under assault.

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CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6472 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 22 of 301 (257726)
11-08-2005 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Chiroptera
11-08-2005 8:55 AM


Re: Did I call it, or what?
It was your post that I responded to. Otherwise, I would have ignored this thread. And this new posters have arrived, who are not reflexive moral relativists, and witrh whom rational discourse is therefore possible, I'm motivated to continue.

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Replies to this message:
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CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6472 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 23 of 301 (257733)
11-08-2005 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Silent H
11-08-2005 5:11 AM


Re: Socio-economic reasons don't always explain
jews don't assimilate!!! Are you truly that obtuse? I won't say anymore. Instead, I'll let you get even more outrageous defending that statement, then i'll respond.
As for "It is the likes of Canadian Steve which claim they sometimes have ulterior motives to change the nations, rather than to simply come here and enjoy prosperity." You have not read me well. I have said that most Muslism do come to enjoy the economic benefits. I've also said many come to escape tyranny, from the Husseins and, ironically, the Islamists. But I've also said that the division within Islam between martial and spiritual jihadis means that many cannot assimilate. So they come for economic benefits, but either realize once here that they cannot assimilate, or never intended to regardless. In fact, they strctly intend not to, and for their children neither. The famed islamic author, Tariq Ramadan, recently made comments on exactly this, why the west should not expect Muslims to assimilate.
You're certainly right that poverty is an issue behind the riots in France. But the bigger issue is why are Muslims poor, but not frnech bhuddists, Hindus, Jews, or any other identifiable group? The answer is found in Dalrymple's essay for which i provided a link: the refusal to assimilate, including holding to 7th century notions of women as property.

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CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6472 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 25 of 301 (257739)
11-08-2005 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Yaro
11-08-2005 10:15 AM


Re: Why the Islamic world, and not the Christian one
true, the Enlightenment is the key behind the modern day democratic revival. But, i would say, there could not have been an Enlightenment in the Islamic world, and it is not coincidental that it arose in the Christian one. I also agree that fundamentalist Christians would never have agreed to democracy and had to be displaced by enlightenment ideas. But those displacers were, generally, believing Christians too, of a more liberal bent with respect to faith.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Yaro, posted 11-08-2005 3:05 PM CanadianSteve has replied

CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6472 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 26 of 301 (257741)
11-08-2005 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by ohnhai
11-08-2005 7:28 AM


Pipes says there's a revolution brewing

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CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6472 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 27 of 301 (257744)
11-08-2005 10:31 AM


Are "The battle lines being drawn?"
Robert Spencer argues that religion has much to do with the rioting.
http://frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=...

CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6472 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 35 of 301 (257771)
11-08-2005 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Chiroptera
11-08-2005 10:53 AM


Re: Did I call it, or what?
It is probably true that I have begun to insult somewhat back, which is unfortunate. nonetheless, i do believe that moral relativism has taken hold such that it propels reflexive reactions in place of sober intellectual judgment.

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CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6472 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 36 of 301 (257774)
11-08-2005 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by randman
11-08-2005 10:59 AM


Re: Why the Islamic world, and not the Christian one
It is true, as you say, that specific Christian groups came to the Americas to enjoy religious freedom. But that was not a freedom they readily generalized. It was more about themselves than a statement of political philosophy. Is there an argument that, nonetheless, that was the spark that led to further freedoms? I'm dubious, frankly. More likely, enlightenment thinkers - themselves largely practising Christians - saw in the settlers demands for religious freedom a notion that should be generalized to all manner of things.

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