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Member (Idle past 1963 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
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Author | Topic: I'm trying: a stairway to heaven? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
purpledawn Member (Idle past 3479 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
Computer hiccup. Deleted double post.
Have a great day! This message has been edited by purpledawn, 11-08-2005 06:58 AM Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission. -Eleanor Roosevelt-
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3479 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:She repents and asks for forgiveness, just as David did and just as the Elder of the parable should have. Then she is forgiven and back in a state of righteousness. And according to Jesus the righteous inherit eternal life. Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission. -Eleanor Roosevelt-
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3479 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Again, you're not dealing with the whole concept. Yes the Pharisees did their good works for people to see, just like the eager volunteers in my last parable, but they were not criminals. Jesus is calling for them to repent and change their ways and pay more attention to the more important aspects of the Torah. He did not tell people to exceed the self-righteousness of the Pharisees. But to exceed their righteousness. Even a self-righteous person can be righteous. As I've shown before:
Matthew 5:19 Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven... Least not out and only the righteous go to eternal life. Unless you are saying that the two are different? Also:
Matthew 11:11 "Truly I say to you, among those born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptist! Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. Address these and how they relate to what you are trying to say. You still haven't anwered whether you consider the words attributed to Jesus to be what he actually said or not. Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission. -Eleanor Roosevelt-
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iano Member (Idle past 1963 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
snap....double post
This message has been edited by iano, 08-Nov-2005 12:49 PM
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iano Member (Idle past 1963 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
pd writes: In the OT I find that the word translated righteous means: just, lawful, righteous.Unrighteous means: trouble, wickedness, sorrow Your link (a handy one to have in favorites!) describes NT use of the word 'righteous' as follows:
just, lawful, righteous a)just, righteous (in government) b)just, right (in one's cause) c)just, righteous (in conduct and character) d)righteous (as justified and vindicated by God) e)right, correct, lawful So when the NT says a man is righteous it can mean any of the above and we would need the context to tell us which one. We see in various places that someone was considered "righteous in Gods sight". Clearly, when it comes to being righteous, it is being righteous in his sight that counts..however that comes about Two things spring to mind: As far as I am aware, nowhere in the NT do we see that man is considered righteous in Gods sight because he follows or as a consequence of him following the law. We do see that someone is seen as righteous in Gods sight and that they follow Gods laws. Which is a different thing None of the above uses for the word indicate 'trying'. ie: you are not righteous in any of the contexts in which the word is used because you try to be lawful. Only that you are law abiding This message has been edited by iano, 08-Nov-2005 12:38 PM
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truthlover Member (Idle past 4081 days) Posts: 1548 From: Selmer, TN Joined: |
As far as I am aware, nowhere in the NT do we see that man is considered righteous in Gods sight because he follows or as a consequence of him following the law. I think a survey of the places where the NT says "don't be fooled" is very interesting.
quote: The only thing missing from that quote is the "duh!" at the end.
quote: quote: Finally, one more, in case it's not "obvious" what the NT teaches:
quote: So it is that "righteous in God's sight" means actually, really practicing righteousness. Those who do not are "obviously" not of God. Little children, don't let anyone fool you with empty words.
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iano Member (Idle past 1963 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
pd writes: She repents and asks for forgiveness, just as David did and just as the Elder of the parable should have. Then she is forgiven and back in a state of righteousness. And according to Jesus the righteous inherit eternal life. Okay, so she is in the same boat as the elder. Sometimes doing as Jesus said, sometimes not. Both able to repent and be forgiven their sin. Obviously only a believer can do that. A person who doesn't believe in God won't think they are sinning so won't ask forgiveness So, this believer asks for forgiveness and is forgiven. If she doesn't ask forgiveness then she cannot recieve it presumably. So it is not her following the law which achieves salvation but being forgiven when she doesn't. The elder didn't try. He let fear stand in the way. What if it had been selfisheness. Could that be equally forgiven. Or plain pre-occupation with the football match. Or any other of the myriad of reasons a person may not love their neighbour? Assuming all motivations could be forgiven and all sins thus can be forgiven (except grieving the Holy Spirit) then all one has to ensure is that one remembers to repent and ask for forgiveness. But what if we forget one? If throughout the whole course of our lives a sin slips the net. Summing up we may say that certain people... - believe in God and believe that he forgives our sin if they ask him- (from the above), recognize that sin is sin and they need them forgiven by God - follow the commands on occasion - don't follow the commands on occasion - believe that sins will be forgiven on all the occasions they ask - believe that sin's won't be forgiven if they don't What do you reckon happens in the case that sins are forgotten or when a person comes to believe after years and years of sin and there is no way to remember them all so that they can be forgiven?
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jar Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Okay, so she is in the same boat as the elder. Sometimes doing as Jesus said, sometimes not. Both able to repent and be forgiven their sin. Obviously only a believer can do that. A person who doesn't believe in God won't think they are sinning so won't ask forgiveness Nonsense. There is nothing that I know of that would keep an Atheist from being sorry that he did something and trying to do better in the future. The issue of forgiveness will only come up during judgement when the sum total of the persons behavior is considered. The issue in all of these examples is not belief, not profession, not even acknowledging the existence of GOD, but behavior. What the person does. Do they try to do right. It is NOT simply a case of asking for forgiveness. It's not a assurance that all will automatically be forgiven. Christiantity is NOT a get out of Hell Free card. Repentance is more than just an acknowledgement that you screwed up. It is a multistep process.
Those are the necessary steps in repentance. Nothing in there about asking for forgiveness. Forgiveness enters the discussion at only one point and is very much dependant on all five of the conditions for repentance. Forgiviness is very much time dependant. It is of importance ONLY at the moment of judgement. That's it in a nutshell. Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus and members of other religious groups make the request for forgiveness a regular part of their theology. But there is nothing that says that forgiveness need be part of the ongoing process. It can be done in bulk at the moment of judgement, and regardless of what we might believe, in reality it is only at the moment of judgement that we will know what the results really are. But the five steps involved in repentance are by their very nature, part of each persons ongoing life. They must happen on a day to day basis. Each person needs to examine their behavior, their intent, and based on that examination, try to change and modify that behaviour. It is that effort that is essential, that process. It does not matter what one believes. The Atheist who follows those five steps will be more righteous than the Christian that does not. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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iano Member (Idle past 1963 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
truthlover writes: Little children, let no one deceive you. He that does righteousness is righteous. (1 Jn 3:7) And a little later in your post you add a conclusion drawn from later in 1 John - but miss an important piece at verse 9
9 No one born of God commits sin; for God's nature abides in him, and he cannot sin because he is born of God. 10 By this it may be seen who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not do right is not of God, nor he who does not love his brother. I included verse 9 in case anyone thought you were implying that those who do right are, on account of it, made or seen as righteous by God. On the contrary, it seems that somehow or other a person is born of God (and we might remember Jesus words to Nicodemus "unless a man is born again (or of the spirit) he will not see..."). And for that reason, being born of God, a man CANNOT sin (as far as God is concerned). Which ties in nicely with Paul in Romans 3:20. "But now a righteousness from God is revealed....for all who believe (which supplies us with a mechanism of receiving Gods righteousness)" God supplies the righteousness - not man by his works. And when Paul talks of sin in the believer, he doesn't talk of it as the believer sinning but sin in a particular part of the believer "let not sin reign in you mortal flesh" he exhorts. It seems that although a person born of God cannot sin, sin can occur. And Paul tells us where that is: not in the eternal part of them (spirit) but in the mortal part.
So it is that "righteous in God's sight" means actually, really practicing righteousness. Those who do not are "obviously" not of God. It seems this is not the case. But if it were the criteria there would exist a massive problem. Nobody can practice what you preach. Everyone trips over the law if it is under law they are. I don't follow the law all the time, neither do you. But a believer is not under law anymore so cannot sin according to it. If you are under law then you can sin according to it
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3479 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:You haven't shown me that people are consider unrighteous because of minor mistakes even in God's eyes. It really amazes me that you can believe in an awesome God who has the intelligence to create details of a universe from the largest elements down to the tiniest of unseen details, but you don't believe he will actually know who is good and who is bad.Who is sincere and who is not. Who was mislead and who was not. Who intends harm and who does not. Who would make a good citizen in an eternal life and who would not. You don't seem to trust his instincts. I seem to be giving him more credit for good judgment than you are. Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission. -Eleanor Roosevelt-
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iano Member (Idle past 1963 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
jar writes: Nonsense. There is nothing that I know of that would keep an Atheist from being sorry that he did something and trying to do better in the future. The issue of forgiveness will only come up during judgement when the sum total of the persons behavior is considered. Any biblical basis for the ideas in your post Jar? Especially the whole idea of trying.
Christiantity is NOT a get out of Hell Free card. I never heard of a gift that cost the person recieving it anything. "But the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus" I have never heard of a gift that the recipient had to pay for. I never implied Christianity was a get out of Hell free card. It cost alright. It cost God. God bought the gift and gives it to all who would believe...
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jar Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Any biblical basis for the ideas in your post Jar? Especially the whole idea of trying. We've been over this time and time again. Yes there is a Biblical Basis, it's implied throughout the Bible as well as in all of the Creeds and other material that is the foundation of Christianity. It is inherent in the concept of GOD and of man. Let's return to the beginning once again. Is GOD stupid? Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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iano Member (Idle past 1963 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
purpledawn writes: You haven't shown me that people are consider unrighteous because of minor mistakes even in God's eyes. This thread is less about me showing and more about you showing "try" But if you insist
"For whoever keeps the entire law, yet fails in one point, is guilty of breaking it all." - James 2:10 . The idea that any part of the law is minor is a purely human idea. As far as God is concerned all sin is deadly. Look at the consequences of eating one apple... To call them mistakes is disingenuous. They aren't mistakes - they are sin. And the idea that people don't sin in word, thought and deed numerous times a day...well I'll leave that to the individual to decide
but you don't believe he will actually know who is good and who is bad. Who is sincere and who is not. Who was mislead and who was not. Who intends harm and who does not. Who would make a good citizen in an eternal life and who would not. "All have sinned and fallen short" The purpose of this thread is to show 'trying' biblically. The universality of sin is shown by this verse. "The wages of sin is death" shows in no uncertain terms how serious sin is. That's any sin - (until shown "sin above a certain (usually self-determined) level or of a certain type") means death. It is very human to think trying would be the basis of salvation -but we're not here for mans ideas. We're here to see what God says. By the way, Philipians 3:20 "For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly await for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body. ..." 'Our' refers to believers in context. People who are "in Christ", people for whom "there is now no condemnation" etc. Citizenship is decided here on earth.
You don't seem to trust his instincts. God doesn't have instincts. He knows everything already. I trust his word.... This message has been edited by iano, 08-Nov-2005 05:16 PM
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iano Member (Idle past 1963 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
jar writes: Let's return to the beginning once again. Is GOD stupid? This, if I remember correctly, is going to lead to a humanlogic statement. But this thread is about biblical basis, Gods revelation, how God says he does it. Whilst your logic statement will be, logical - it just isn't biblical.
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jar Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Don't think that is an answer. May be wrong.
Is GOD stupid? Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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