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Author Topic:   I'm trying: a stairway to heaven?
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 196 of 303 (257665)
11-08-2005 6:40 AM
Reply to: Message 195 by iano
11-08-2005 5:46 AM


Computer hiccup. Deleted double post.
Have a great day!
This message has been edited by purpledawn, 11-08-2005 06:58 AM

Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission. -Eleanor Roosevelt-

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by iano, posted 11-08-2005 5:46 AM iano has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 197 of 303 (257666)
11-08-2005 6:44 AM
Reply to: Message 195 by iano
11-08-2005 5:46 AM


Re: On Intent
quote:
Righteous action this today, unrighteous action next week. All the way through her life. Where does she end up: heaven or hell?
She repents and asks for forgiveness, just as David did and just as the Elder of the parable should have. Then she is forgiven and back in a state of righteousness. And according to Jesus the righteous inherit eternal life.

Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission. -Eleanor Roosevelt-

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by iano, posted 11-08-2005 5:46 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by iano, posted 11-08-2005 8:45 AM purpledawn has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 198 of 303 (257670)
11-08-2005 7:19 AM
Reply to: Message 186 by iano
11-07-2005 5:52 AM


Re: Eternal Life and Salvation
quote:
The only people who reckoned the Pharisees were righteous were the Pharisees themselves and people. Jesus didn't.
Again, you're not dealing with the whole concept.
Yes the Pharisees did their good works for people to see, just like the eager volunteers in my last parable, but they were not criminals.
Jesus is calling for them to repent and change their ways and pay more attention to the more important aspects of the Torah.
He did not tell people to exceed the self-righteousness of the Pharisees. But to exceed their righteousness. Even a self-righteous person can be righteous.
As I've shown before:
Matthew 5:19
Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven...
Least not out and only the righteous go to eternal life. Unless you are saying that the two are different?
Also:
Matthew 11:11
"Truly I say to you, among those born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptist! Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
Address these and how they relate to what you are trying to say.
You still haven't anwered whether you consider the words attributed to Jesus to be what he actually said or not.

Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission. -Eleanor Roosevelt-

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by iano, posted 11-07-2005 5:52 AM iano has not replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 199 of 303 (257675)
11-08-2005 7:31 AM
Reply to: Message 191 by purpledawn
11-07-2005 11:46 AM


Re: Righteous vs Unrighteous
snap....double post
This message has been edited by iano, 08-Nov-2005 12:49 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by purpledawn, posted 11-07-2005 11:46 AM purpledawn has not replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 200 of 303 (257676)
11-08-2005 7:32 AM
Reply to: Message 191 by purpledawn
11-07-2005 11:46 AM


Re: Righteous vs Unrighteous
pd writes:
In the OT I find that the word translated righteous means: just, lawful, righteous.Unrighteous means: trouble, wickedness, sorrow
Your link (a handy one to have in favorites!) describes NT use of the word 'righteous' as follows:
just, lawful, righteous
a)just, righteous (in government)
b)just, right (in one's cause)
c)just, righteous (in conduct and character)
d)righteous (as justified and vindicated by God)
e)right, correct, lawful
So when the NT says a man is righteous it can mean any of the above and we would need the context to tell us which one. We see in various places that someone was considered "righteous in Gods sight". Clearly, when it comes to being righteous, it is being righteous in his sight that counts..however that comes about
Two things spring to mind:
As far as I am aware, nowhere in the NT do we see that man is considered righteous in Gods sight because he follows or as a consequence of him following the law. We do see that someone is seen as righteous in Gods sight and that they follow Gods laws. Which is a different thing
None of the above uses for the word indicate 'trying'. ie: you are not righteous in any of the contexts in which the word is used because you try to be lawful. Only that you are law abiding
This message has been edited by iano, 08-Nov-2005 12:38 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by purpledawn, posted 11-07-2005 11:46 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by truthlover, posted 11-08-2005 8:17 AM iano has replied
 Message 205 by purpledawn, posted 11-08-2005 11:39 AM iano has replied

truthlover
Member (Idle past 4059 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 201 of 303 (257685)
11-08-2005 8:17 AM
Reply to: Message 200 by iano
11-08-2005 7:32 AM


Re: Righteous vs Unrighteous
As far as I am aware, nowhere in the NT do we see that man is considered righteous in Gods sight because he follows or as a consequence of him following the law.
I think a survey of the places where the NT says "don't be fooled" is very interesting.
quote:
Little children, let no one deceive you. He that does righteousness is righteous. (1 Jn 3:7)
The only thing missing from that quote is the "duh!" at the end.
quote:
Don't you know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Don't be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters (long list of sins here), nor extortioners shall inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Cor 6:9-11)
quote:
For this you know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor greedy man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the children of disobedience.
Finally, one more, in case it's not "obvious" what the NT teaches:
quote:
In this the children of God are obvious, as are the children of the devil. Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.
So it is that "righteous in God's sight" means actually, really practicing righteousness. Those who do not are "obviously" not of God.
Little children, don't let anyone fool you with empty words.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by iano, posted 11-08-2005 7:32 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by iano, posted 11-08-2005 11:09 AM truthlover has not replied
 Message 211 by iano, posted 11-08-2005 12:27 PM truthlover has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 202 of 303 (257697)
11-08-2005 8:45 AM
Reply to: Message 197 by purpledawn
11-08-2005 6:44 AM


Re: On Intent
pd writes:
She repents and asks for forgiveness, just as David did and just as the Elder of the parable should have. Then she is forgiven and back in a state of righteousness. And according to Jesus the righteous inherit eternal life.
Okay, so she is in the same boat as the elder. Sometimes doing as Jesus said, sometimes not. Both able to repent and be forgiven their sin. Obviously only a believer can do that. A person who doesn't believe in God won't think they are sinning so won't ask forgiveness
So, this believer asks for forgiveness and is forgiven. If she doesn't ask forgiveness then she cannot recieve it presumably. So it is not her following the law which achieves salvation but being forgiven when she doesn't. The elder didn't try. He let fear stand in the way. What if it had been selfisheness. Could that be equally forgiven. Or plain pre-occupation with the football match. Or any other of the myriad of reasons a person may not love their neighbour?
Assuming all motivations could be forgiven and all sins thus can be forgiven (except grieving the Holy Spirit) then all one has to ensure is that one remembers to repent and ask for forgiveness.
But what if we forget one? If throughout the whole course of our lives a sin slips the net. Summing up we may say that certain people...
- believe in God and believe that he forgives our sin if they ask him
- (from the above), recognize that sin is sin and they need them forgiven by God
- follow the commands on occasion
- don't follow the commands on occasion
- believe that sins will be forgiven on all the occasions they ask
- believe that sin's won't be forgiven if they don't
What do you reckon happens in the case that sins are forgotten or when a person comes to believe after years and years of sin and there is no way to remember them all so that they can be forgiven?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by purpledawn, posted 11-08-2005 6:44 AM purpledawn has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by jar, posted 11-08-2005 10:34 AM iano has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 203 of 303 (257745)
11-08-2005 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 202 by iano
11-08-2005 8:45 AM


Re: On Intent
Okay, so she is in the same boat as the elder. Sometimes doing as Jesus said, sometimes not. Both able to repent and be forgiven their sin. Obviously only a believer can do that. A person who doesn't believe in God won't think they are sinning so won't ask forgiveness
Nonsense.
There is nothing that I know of that would keep an Atheist from being sorry that he did something and trying to do better in the future. The issue of forgiveness will only come up during judgement when the sum total of the persons behavior is considered.
The issue in all of these examples is not belief, not profession, not even acknowledging the existence of GOD, but behavior. What the person does. Do they try to do right.
It is NOT simply a case of asking for forgiveness. It's not a assurance that all will automatically be forgiven.
Christiantity is NOT a get out of Hell Free card.
Repentance is more than just an acknowledgement that you screwed up. It is a multistep process.
  1. recognize that you screwed up.
  2. acknowledge that you screwed up.
  3. feel sorry that you screwed up.
  4. make a commitment to try to do better in the future.
  5. actually try to do better in the future.
Those are the necessary steps in repentance. Nothing in there about asking for forgiveness. Forgiveness enters the discussion at only one point and is very much dependant on all five of the conditions for repentance.
Forgiviness is very much time dependant. It is of importance ONLY at the moment of judgement. That's it in a nutshell.
Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus and members of other religious groups make the request for forgiveness a regular part of their theology. But there is nothing that says that forgiveness need be part of the ongoing process. It can be done in bulk at the moment of judgement, and regardless of what we might believe, in reality it is only at the moment of judgement that we will know what the results really are.
But the five steps involved in repentance are by their very nature, part of each persons ongoing life. They must happen on a day to day basis. Each person needs to examine their behavior, their intent, and based on that examination, try to change and modify that behaviour.
It is that effort that is essential, that process. It does not matter what one believes. The Atheist who follows those five steps will be more righteous than the Christian that does not.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by iano, posted 11-08-2005 8:45 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by iano, posted 11-08-2005 11:52 AM jar has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 204 of 303 (257760)
11-08-2005 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 201 by truthlover
11-08-2005 8:17 AM


Re: Righteous vs Unrighteous
truthlover writes:
Little children, let no one deceive you. He that does righteousness is righteous. (1 Jn 3:7)
And a little later in your post you add a conclusion drawn from later in 1 John - but miss an important piece at verse 9
9 No one born of God commits sin; for God's nature abides in him, and he cannot sin because he is born of God. 10 By this it may be seen who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not do right is not of God, nor he who does not love his brother.
I included verse 9 in case anyone thought you were implying that those who do right are, on account of it, made or seen as righteous by God. On the contrary, it seems that somehow or other a person is born of God (and we might remember Jesus words to Nicodemus "unless a man is born again (or of the spirit) he will not see..."). And for that reason, being born of God, a man CANNOT sin (as far as God is concerned). Which ties in nicely with Paul in Romans 3:20. "But now a righteousness from God is revealed....for all who believe (which supplies us with a mechanism of receiving Gods righteousness)"
God supplies the righteousness - not man by his works. And when Paul talks of sin in the believer, he doesn't talk of it as the believer sinning but sin in a particular part of the believer "let not sin reign in you mortal flesh" he exhorts. It seems that although a person born of God cannot sin, sin can occur. And Paul tells us where that is: not in the eternal part of them (spirit) but in the mortal part.
So it is that "righteous in God's sight" means actually, really practicing righteousness. Those who do not are "obviously" not of God.
It seems this is not the case. But if it were the criteria there would exist a massive problem. Nobody can practice what you preach. Everyone trips over the law if it is under law they are. I don't follow the law all the time, neither do you. But a believer is not under law anymore so cannot sin according to it. If you are under law then you can sin according to it

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by truthlover, posted 11-08-2005 8:17 AM truthlover has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 205 of 303 (257767)
11-08-2005 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 200 by iano
11-08-2005 7:32 AM


Re: Righteous vs Unrighteous
quote:
None of the above uses for the word indicate 'trying'. ie: you are not righteous in any of the contexts in which the word is used because you try to be lawful. Only that you are law abiding
You haven't shown me that people are consider unrighteous because of minor mistakes even in God's eyes.
It really amazes me that you can believe in an awesome God who has the intelligence to create details of a universe from the largest elements down to the tiniest of unseen details, but you don't believe he will actually know who is good and who is bad.
Who is sincere and who is not.
Who was mislead and who was not.
Who intends harm and who does not.
Who would make a good citizen in an eternal life and who would not.
You don't seem to trust his instincts.
I seem to be giving him more credit for good judgment than you are.

Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission. -Eleanor Roosevelt-

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by iano, posted 11-08-2005 7:32 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by iano, posted 11-08-2005 12:13 PM purpledawn has not replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 206 of 303 (257769)
11-08-2005 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 203 by jar
11-08-2005 10:34 AM


Re: On Intent
jar writes:
Nonsense. There is nothing that I know of that would keep an Atheist from being sorry that he did something and trying to do better in the future. The issue of forgiveness will only come up during judgement when the sum total of the persons behavior is considered.
Any biblical basis for the ideas in your post Jar? Especially the whole idea of trying.
Christiantity is NOT a get out of Hell Free card.
I never heard of a gift that cost the person recieving it anything. "But the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus" I have never heard of a gift that the recipient had to pay for. I never implied Christianity was a get out of Hell free card. It cost alright. It cost God. God bought the gift and gives it to all who would believe...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by jar, posted 11-08-2005 10:34 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by jar, posted 11-08-2005 11:58 AM iano has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 207 of 303 (257773)
11-08-2005 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 206 by iano
11-08-2005 11:52 AM


Re: On Intent
Any biblical basis for the ideas in your post Jar? Especially the whole idea of trying.
We've been over this time and time again.
Yes there is a Biblical Basis, it's implied throughout the Bible as well as in all of the Creeds and other material that is the foundation of Christianity.
It is inherent in the concept of GOD and of man.
Let's return to the beginning once again.
Is GOD stupid?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by iano, posted 11-08-2005 11:52 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by iano, posted 11-08-2005 12:22 PM jar has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 208 of 303 (257775)
11-08-2005 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by purpledawn
11-08-2005 11:39 AM


Re: Righteous vs Unrighteous
purpledawn writes:
You haven't shown me that people are consider unrighteous because of minor mistakes even in God's eyes.
This thread is less about me showing and more about you showing "try" But if you insist
"For whoever keeps the entire law, yet fails in one point, is guilty of breaking it all." - James 2:10
.
The idea that any part of the law is minor is a purely human idea. As far as God is concerned all sin is deadly. Look at the consequences of eating one apple...
To call them mistakes is disingenuous. They aren't mistakes - they are sin. And the idea that people don't sin in word, thought and deed numerous times a day...well I'll leave that to the individual to decide
but you don't believe he will actually know who is good and who is bad. Who is sincere and who is not. Who was mislead and who was not. Who intends harm and who does not. Who would make a good citizen in an eternal life and who would not.
"All have sinned and fallen short" The purpose of this thread is to show 'trying' biblically. The universality of sin is shown by this verse. "The wages of sin is death" shows in no uncertain terms how serious sin is. That's any sin - (until shown "sin above a certain (usually self-determined) level or of a certain type") means death. It is very human to think trying would be the basis of salvation -but we're not here for mans ideas. We're here to see what God says.
By the way, Philipians 3:20 "For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly await for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body. ..."
'Our' refers to believers in context. People who are "in Christ", people for whom "there is now no condemnation" etc. Citizenship is decided here on earth.
You don't seem to trust his instincts.
God doesn't have instincts. He knows everything already. I trust his word....
This message has been edited by iano, 08-Nov-2005 05:16 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by purpledawn, posted 11-08-2005 11:39 AM purpledawn has not replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 209 of 303 (257777)
11-08-2005 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by jar
11-08-2005 11:58 AM


Re: On Intent
jar writes:
Let's return to the beginning once again.
Is GOD stupid?
This, if I remember correctly, is going to lead to a humanlogic statement. But this thread is about biblical basis, Gods revelation, how God says he does it.
Whilst your logic statement will be, logical - it just isn't biblical.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by jar, posted 11-08-2005 11:58 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by jar, posted 11-08-2005 12:24 PM iano has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 210 of 303 (257779)
11-08-2005 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by iano
11-08-2005 12:22 PM


Re: On Intent
Don't think that is an answer. May be wrong.
Is GOD stupid?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by iano, posted 11-08-2005 12:22 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by iano, posted 11-08-2005 12:45 PM jar has replied

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