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Author | Topic: The beginning of the jihad in Europe? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
randman  Suspended Member (Idle past 4925 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: |
jar, funny how you left off the evangelical Christians slaughtered for centuries at the hands of the Roman Catholic heirarchy.
I know, I know, it's too hard for you to accept some basic nuanced level of thinking. Just saying the word "Christian" is like waiving a red flag in front of a bull. Coupled with the fact you claim or are a "Christian", one wonders if there is some sort of self-loathing involved. This message has been edited by randman, 11-08-2005 11:16 AM
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jar Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
jar, funny how you left off the evangelical Christians slaughtered for centuries at the hands of the Roman Catholic heirarchy. Thanks for bringing that up. It provides the perfect segue to also bring up the slaughter of Roman Catholics slaughter by Protestants. And the slaughter, discrimination, oppression and deportation of Jews throughout Christian Europe all the way into the 20th. Century.
Coupled with the fact you claim or are a "Christian", one wonders if there is some sort of self-loathing involved. One might wonder that, if one is incapable of reading what I have posted over my stay here at EvC. But that is simply wrong and a classic tactic of those who are incabale or unwilling to deal with rationality or objective reason, who approach everything with a preconceived opinion and will maintain that opinion regardless of the facts. And looking a history, the fact is that no movement has ever been as violent, intolerant, despotic and destructive as Christianity. I would be failing as a Christian if I did not acknowledge its failings as well as its successes. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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randman  Suspended Member (Idle past 4925 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: |
jar, you seem incapable of reading my posts. When did I mention Catholics being the ones advocating liberty.
I specifically mentioned the Evangelical wing of Christianity and specified 3 groups within that stream of thought: BaptistsQuakers Anabaptists
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jar Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
What sect did Rev. Dole belong to?
Why were the WHITE Southern Baptist Churches the pulpits spouting hate and intolerance during my days in the civil rights movement in the South? Why is the only Openly Gay Bishop in the Episcopal Church? Why is the message of intolerance that is being preached today coming from the Evangelical Community? Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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CanadianSteve Member (Idle past 6499 days) Posts: 756 From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada Joined: |
It is probably true that I have begun to insult somewhat back, which is unfortunate. nonetheless, i do believe that moral relativism has taken hold such that it propels reflexive reactions in place of sober intellectual judgment.
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CanadianSteve Member (Idle past 6499 days) Posts: 756 From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada Joined: |
It is true, as you say, that specific Christian groups came to the Americas to enjoy religious freedom. But that was not a freedom they readily generalized. It was more about themselves than a statement of political philosophy. Is there an argument that, nonetheless, that was the spark that led to further freedoms? I'm dubious, frankly. More likely, enlightenment thinkers - themselves largely practising Christians - saw in the settlers demands for religious freedom a notion that should be generalized to all manner of things.
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nwr Member Posts: 6411 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Let's see if we can get this discussion back to what is happening in France.
Although I have always had misgivings about affirmative action, it does make it easier for a subculture to merge into the main culture. Could this work in France? This message has been edited by AdminPhat, 11-08-2005 01:09 PM
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randman  Suspended Member (Idle past 4925 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: |
Jar, we're talking history here. Evidently you lack a basic level of understanding of the history of Christianity and so you are not able to grasp what I am talking about. That's not my fault.
Take some time to learn what "evangelical" would have meant from the years 300AD to 1800AD. Ever hear of the Anabaptists? Where did their theology come from? The Enlightenment concepts of liberty of conscience and freedom of religion stemmed from Anabaptist theology which in turn stemmed from centuries of Medieval sects which stemmed all the way back in their beliefs to the time before the Constantinian changes and then from those that dissented from them. Additionally, communism has been far more violent and destructive than even the hybrid forms of Christianity such as Catholicism which sought to marry the Church and State. You're just spouting propaganda without any reliable historical sense at all.
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CanadianSteve Member (Idle past 6499 days) Posts: 756 From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada Joined: |
I don't know whether affirmative action is practised in france, although it wouldn't surprise me if it is and if so, that it ultimately is failing there as elsewhere. I do know that france has a huge number of social programs and a ton of subsidized housing. I also know that Muslims disproportionately benefit from these programs.
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jar Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
randman, your post is simply yet another attempt by you to draw things off topic, change the goalposts and a failure to address anything others post, and considering that this discussion has little to do with the OP, as weak as it is, I'm simply going to write you off once more.
Enjoy. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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randman  Suspended Member (Idle past 4925 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: |
CanadianSteve, you are making a common error. Early Protestant theology did not accept freedom of religion. Anabaptist theology did. Eventually, most Protestants were won over to Anabaptist theology that the early Reformers like Luther and Swingli condemned as heretical, consenting to the killing of such "heretics" which arguably were the truer Christians.
But in the colonies, both non-Catholic camps were well-represented. Massuchusetts was represented by the camp that denied freedom of religion, although there was some sentiment there for it, and Rhode Island and Pennsylvania were strongly represented by the tradition of Anabaptist theology. To pretend that there was a monolithic view even at the very earliest times is just wrong. To really understand Western history, you have to realize that the Reformation was not principally just about the Catholics and the Protestants, but it was a 3-way split, between the Catholics, the Protestants, and the Evangelicals lumped together as Anabaptists. The Evangelicals were nothing new, and their beliefs dated all the way back before Catholicism had even become established, and from time to time such Evangelical sects were bitterly persecuted even to the point of genocide. Protestant theology was something new, but the Reformers held to the Church/State marriage and some Catholic ideas, although eventually these waned and Anabaptist theology became dominant in these areas, which is why many Protestants today say things like "you must be born-again" which was an alien thought to early Protestantism since infant baptism already secured that status. Luther and the early Reformers, for example, would not have considered the Great Commission something that needed to be carried about since they thought it had already been carried out and established Christendom. But at the same time, Calvinism merged with evangelicalism to produce a vibrant, biblical-based form of Christianity in America leading to major revivals that helped shape the nation and continues to do so today.
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randman  Suspended Member (Idle past 4925 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: |
It's not my fault you don't know who the Anabaptists were or the influence of their theology on liberty in the West, and please remember you were the one drawing this off-topic.
You could learn, but refuse to do so. This message has been edited by randman, 11-08-2005 01:11 PM
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
quote: I would ask for an example that shows that I am guilty of such a thing; unfortunately, all the earlier thread in which you and I participated are now closed (having gone over 300 posts), and the particular subject matter is not directly relevant to this thread. However, I will say that if you are going to accuse me (or anyone else) of "moral relativism", rather than making such broad accusations you should point it out during the argument itself, when a particular post shows evidence of lack of "sober judgement" or "moral relativism" -- you should also be prepared to explain why you are making such an accusation, beyond the fact that the post disagrees with your opinion or that of the particular websites that you are using. "Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt
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randman  Suspended Member (Idle past 4925 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: |
I think you're right. It might help alleviate the situation and lead to more assimilation into French society. It could be better alternative than civil unrest, but at the same time, if France does this, imo, they should put a cap on the number of years the program lasts, say 25 years.
Same thing here, imo.
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CanadianSteve Member (Idle past 6499 days) Posts: 756 From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada Joined: |
I wasn't arguing that early protestantism was for freedom of religion. I mistakenly thought you had said that. as for everything else, thanks for the education.
Steve
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