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Author Topic:   I'm trying: a stairway to heaven?
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 211 of 303 (257780)
11-08-2005 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 201 by truthlover
11-08-2005 8:17 AM


Re: Righteous vs Unrighteous
truthlover writes:
Little children, let no one deceive you. He that does righteousness is righteous. (1 Jn 3:7)
Which reminds me of something. Is the person who does right made righteous because of what he does
OR
Is the right things a person does a result of the fact he is righteous.
IOW: is doing right a cause or a consequence. And how do we tell from the bald verse?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by truthlover, posted 11-08-2005 8:17 AM truthlover has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by truthlover, posted 11-09-2005 2:24 PM iano has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 212 of 303 (257784)
11-08-2005 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 210 by jar
11-08-2005 12:24 PM


Re: On Intent
No. God is not stupid.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by jar, posted 11-08-2005 12:24 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by jar, posted 11-08-2005 12:52 PM iano has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 213 of 303 (257788)
11-08-2005 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 212 by iano
11-08-2005 12:45 PM


Re: On Intent
Do you believe GOD is vainglorious?
This message has been edited by jar, 11-08-2005 11:54 AM

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by iano, posted 11-08-2005 12:45 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by iano, posted 11-08-2005 12:56 PM jar has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 214 of 303 (257789)
11-08-2005 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by jar
11-08-2005 12:52 PM


Re: On Intent
Nope. (I knew what vainglorious from the last time I had to look it up when you asked me this question). "Knowledge and understanding through.... repetition"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by jar, posted 11-08-2005 12:52 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by jar, posted 11-08-2005 1:06 PM iano has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 215 of 303 (257793)
11-08-2005 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by iano
11-08-2005 12:56 PM


Re: On Intent
Okay, GOD is neither stupid not vainglorious.
Now, do you see any problems with what I posted in Message 203?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by iano, posted 11-08-2005 12:56 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by iano, posted 11-08-2005 1:17 PM jar has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 216 of 303 (257798)
11-08-2005 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by jar
11-08-2005 1:06 PM


Re: On Intent
Yes. The main problem is that it isn't biblical. It's a philosophy. Grounded on a start presumption that 'trying' matters for salvation.
I'm off for now. Dinner and bible study beckons. Romans again tonight
See ya later dude

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by jar, posted 11-08-2005 1:06 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by jar, posted 11-08-2005 1:22 PM iano has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 217 of 303 (257802)
11-08-2005 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 216 by iano
11-08-2005 1:17 PM


Re: On Intent
Try reading the rest of Romans and maybe even the rest of the manual.
When you return perhaps we can walk through Message 203 together.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by iano, posted 11-08-2005 1:17 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by iano, posted 11-09-2005 5:18 AM jar has not replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 218 of 303 (258035)
11-09-2005 5:18 AM
Reply to: Message 217 by jar
11-08-2005 1:22 PM


Re: On Intent
jar writes:
Try reading the rest of Romans and maybe even the rest of the manual.
I'm ready when you are. But like the thread says Jar, it's a biblical case for trying that is the area of concern. That will involve verses and passages looked at in context, which knit the various elements together. An argument you presented before IIRC ran along the lines:
- man can't keep all the law all the time
- God is reasonable - thus she couldn't expect us to keep the law
- thus man doesn't have to keep the law the best he can do is try
- if you try, she knows the heart and will forgive
...remains a philosophical one if the case cannot be made biblically.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by jar, posted 11-08-2005 1:22 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 219 by purpledawn, posted 11-09-2005 9:04 AM iano has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 219 of 303 (258069)
11-09-2005 9:04 AM
Reply to: Message 218 by iano
11-09-2005 5:18 AM


Seeking, Striving, Trying
Paul was trying to please God, not men
1 Thessalonians 2-4
On the contrary, we speak as men approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel. We are not trying to please men, but God, who tests our hearts.
Gal 1:10
Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ.
For his efforts Paul expects his award, not a gift.
2 Timothy 4:6-7
For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time has come for my departure. I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.
Which seems different than what he says in Romans 6:23.
________________
Now if one has to work to keep the faith or to believe, aren't they believing for the purpose of gaining eternal life?
If you say only those who believe receive eternal life, then those who convert are doing so to gain eternal life. The motivation is eternal life, not true love or trust in God or Jesus.
Kinda like the people who like me only for what I can do for them or give them.
Who is truly righteous? The one who does what is right for the sake of doing what is right or the one who does what is right because of an expected reward/gift? This includes actions and beliefs.

Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission. -Eleanor Roosevelt-

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by iano, posted 11-09-2005 5:18 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by iano, posted 11-09-2005 12:11 PM purpledawn has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 220 of 303 (258114)
11-09-2005 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 219 by purpledawn
11-09-2005 9:04 AM


Re: Seeking, Striving, Trying
Paul was indeed trying to please God. He, like any Christian is in a position to be able to please God. Unlike a non-Christian...
romans 8 writes:
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 To set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace.
Sounds very works orientated doesn't it? If I "chose" to set my mind then. However....
Romans 8 continued writes:
....7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, indeed it cannot; 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh, you are in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Any one who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, although your bodies are dead because of sin, your spirits are alive because of righteousness
So, if Christ is in you, you will have the Spirit. And if you have the Spirit you are not in the flesh. And vice versa. And if vice versa, ie: you are not a Christian, you CANNOT please God. Which, although possibly coming as a surprise, kind of fits with "all your righteousness are as filthy rags"
Paul can please God and is indeed trying to please God and he looks forward to reward. Reward as you say isn't gift, it is a payment for works done. But Paul doesn't mention reward as being salvation (which would as you say, conflict with him saying it is the gift of God).
Jesus talked about "greatest" and "least" in the kingdom of heaven. Something is going to decide greatest and least in heaven. And we know a Christians will be judged according to their works. But just not in terms of salvation. It is in terms of heavenly reward. But you'd have to be in heaven to find out what the reward will be. For the non-Christian there is no reward because nothing they have done can have pleased God.
2 Timothy 4:6-7For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time has come for my departure. I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.
As far a his award, a crown of righteousness, it is fairly straightforward. Christians are called sons of God and heirs. The word heir is used because an heir will be crowned. Paul has finished the tasks God set him, his has carried his cross, his time is up. He is summing up his life in Christ. It is time for him, as heir, to be crowned. Only heirs are crowned. The question is, how does one become an heir?
"To those who believed on his name He gave the right to be called children of God" Only children of a King can possibly be heirs. Either "begotten" children (Christ) or "adopted" children (Christians). An heir looking back at a life in preparation for his Coronation only to then look forward to the Coronation itself is not looking at his Coronation being a result of his preparation works. He is an heir - his Coronation results from that and that alone.
That is why the word heir and son is used. And heirdom and sonship are not arrived at by works. It is always belief, it is always faith.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by purpledawn, posted 11-09-2005 9:04 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by purpledawn, posted 11-09-2005 12:29 PM iano has replied
 Message 222 by ringo, posted 11-09-2005 12:38 PM iano has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 221 of 303 (258118)
11-09-2005 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by iano
11-09-2005 12:11 PM


Re: Seeking, Striving, Trying
quote:
you are not a Christian, you CANNOT please God
Please show me where this is supported in the Bible.

Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission. -Eleanor Roosevelt-

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by iano, posted 11-09-2005 12:11 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 224 by truthlover, posted 11-09-2005 2:28 PM purpledawn has replied
 Message 225 by iano, posted 11-09-2005 3:28 PM purpledawn has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 222 of 303 (258125)
11-09-2005 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by iano
11-09-2005 12:11 PM


Re: Seeking, Striving, Trying
iano writes:
For the non-Christian there is no reward because nothing they have done can have pleased God.
Jesus told us what we have to do to please God:
quote:
Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Loudly proclaiming, "I am a Christian and you're not," is not part of it:
quote:
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
It's the ones who don't "love thy neighbour" who are punished:
quote:
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mat 25:42 For I was hungry, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
God will divide the sheep from the goats, and it is clear that that division is based on what was done to the least of Jesus' brothers. It is not based on whether or not one is in the "club".

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by iano, posted 11-09-2005 12:11 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 227 by iano, posted 11-09-2005 4:56 PM ringo has replied

truthlover
Member (Idle past 4059 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 223 of 303 (258157)
11-09-2005 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by iano
11-08-2005 12:27 PM


Re: Righteous vs Unrighteous
Is the person who does right made righteous because of what he does
OR
Is the right things a person does a result of the fact he is righteous.
None of this is relevant. You were trying to draw a distinction between "righteous in God's sight" and actually doing right. So now you have discussed where you think the source of doing right is. Let's suppose I agree, which I don't, but let's suppose I do.
1 Jn 3:7 still says "Righteous in God's sight" refers to the person who actually does righteousness.
truthlover writes:
So it is that "righteous in God's sight" means actually, really practicing righteousness. Those who do not are "obviously" not of God.
jano writes:
It seems this is not the case.
No, it is the case. Just because you changed the subject doesn't mean 1 Jn 3:7 suddenly ceased to exist.
It seems this is not the case. But if it were the criteria there would exist a massive problem. Nobody can practice what you preach.
Then John was out of his mind? He was just babbling nonsense? He said anyone who couldn't practice what he, not I, preached is not of God. In fact, he said they were children of the devil.
He said that, I didn't.
If you don't know anyone who can practice what I preach, which is nothing more than what John preached, then it is because what you preach is powerless and does not cause people to be born of God. I know lots of people who practice what I preach, and I live with them, so I get to see them every day, with their children, with their wives, with their friends, and with strangers.
What you say, jano, is the typical mass of contradictions that always comes from Christians. First you say it must be so for all who are born of God, then you say it can't be so for anyone no matter what.
In the end, it boils down to something very simple..."He who practices righteousness is righteous (duh!)."
That not only can be done, it is being done every day. In the end, it is not non-Christians who oppose John's Gospel, it is Christians, because they can't reproduce it. Non-Christians just ask for proof (you know, the "fruit" Jesus spoke of).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by iano, posted 11-08-2005 12:27 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 226 by iano, posted 11-09-2005 4:47 PM truthlover has replied
 Message 228 by iano, posted 11-09-2005 5:06 PM truthlover has replied

truthlover
Member (Idle past 4059 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 224 of 303 (258158)
11-09-2005 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 221 by purpledawn
11-09-2005 12:29 PM


Re: Seeking, Striving, Trying
Please show me where this is supported in the Bible.
While it does not say "if you are not a Christian, you cannot please God," it does say, "So then those that are in the flesh cannot please God" (Rom 8:8). It follows that up by saying, "You are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God is in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to him" (Rom 8:9).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by purpledawn, posted 11-09-2005 12:29 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 234 by purpledawn, posted 11-10-2005 7:35 AM truthlover has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 225 of 303 (258173)
11-09-2005 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 221 by purpledawn
11-09-2005 12:29 PM


Re: Seeking, Striving, Trying
iano writes:
you are not a Christian, you CANNOT please God
pd writes:
Please show me where this is supported in the Bible.
Its a bit of a subject but I derive it as follows.
Only those who are in the spirit can please God
Only those who have the spirit are in the Spirit
Only those who are in Christ have the Spirit
Only saints can be described as being in Christ
Only saints are Christians
This list isn't exhaustive, you might find for example that a person isn't referred to as a saint but is referred to as a believer. Then we get into a sub-category that only believers can are ever called saints. Etetera.
It's kind of a multi-stranded thing: no matter which strand you pull you will find that it always leads back to some or other feature of the gospel. No exceptions.
Could be a long night

This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by purpledawn, posted 11-09-2005 12:29 PM purpledawn has not replied

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