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Author Topic:   I'm trying: a stairway to heaven?
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 226 of 303 (258195)
11-09-2005 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 223 by truthlover
11-09-2005 2:24 PM


Re: Righteous vs Unrighteous
iano writes:
Is the person who does right made righteous because of what he does OR Is the right things a person does a result of the fact he is righteous.
Truthlover writes:
None of this is relevant. You were trying to draw a distinction between "righteous in God's sight" and actually doing right
I think it is very relevant indeed. I have been stating that the only way a person can be made righteous in Gods sight is if they have their righteousness given to them by God. And if they do then good works (pleasing to God that is) follow as a matter of course (although not in the sense that everything such a person does will be right and pleasing to God)
1 Jn 3:7 still says "Righteous in God's sight" refers to the person who actually does righteousness..... No, it is the case. Just because you changed the subject doesn't mean 1 Jn 3:7 suddenly ceased to exist.
I pointed out to you that you only have to go to verse 9, which says "whoever is born of God...cannot commit sin". It is being born of God that puts a stop to sin here. Thus, a flat contradiction only two verses on - it would appear. Which is it: you trying to do it or God ensuring you don't do it.
Then we have Paul exhorting people who have been born of God, declared righteous etc, exhorting them "not to let sin reign in them" Conflict there too. They are righteous and they sin. Paul provides explaination for the apparent contradiction. He talks of a location of sin in the born-of-God man. A distinct place. Not in the spirit but in the flesh. There is a separation of some sort between the eternal person (who is declared righteous in Gods sight) and their mortal flesh (in which sin resides). Something has happened to man in relation to sin. A separation in terms of sins legal hold on a man unto death has been broken.
Legal. Forensic
See even the terms used of people who have had this righteousness imputed to them: citizens of heaven, sons, heirs, brothers. All legal positional terms. A citizen, son or heir may be a bad heir or a good one. He may be the son who stays at home or a prodigal one. But once a citizen, a son, an heir then (as these words cry out to us) a postional move has taken place. Natural things that happen citizens/sons/heirs will occur. Gods declaration of our being righteous is a forensic, legal act.
And 1 John 3:7 isn't enough to change that on its own
I know lots of people who practice what I preach, and I live with them, so I get to see them every day, with their children, with their wives, with their friends, and with strangers.
You preach John. And John says in verse 9 that a person who is a child of God cannot sin. Are you trying to tell me that you never, ever sin Truthlover. I don't mean tryin' now. I mean, you cannot sin. Never ever. Not an angry word, not a shred of selfishness, no deceit, no lust, always turning the other cheek.
In your dreams
First you say it must be so for all who are born of God, then you say it can't be so for anyone no matter what.
Lest I've confused anyone. 'My' gospel in a nutshell:
Everyone is born a sinner. Because they are born this way they sin. Cause/consequence. Its not Gods fault. Sin will result in our death and Gods wrath. Anyone who realises their position before a holy God and holds up their hand, who realises their sin is their own and that they need a saviour, Jesus, will be saved. The way God saves is by killing off the most important bit of them, the eternal bit. Just a piece of them. He puts that bit to death. Then raises it to life again (he's able to do such things). The bit that comes to life is born again, born of God, born of Spirit, declared righteous in his sight, called a child, a son, a brother, a citizen of heaven etc. This bit is put in Christ. This bit, which used to be under law and all its grip on him through his sin, is freed from the law. The law and its grip no longer applies. Following the law couldn't provide salvation, it could only point the way to salvation.
God doesn't kill off the flesh. The mortal bit. Sin is still around. It resides not in the resurrected bit but in the bit God hasn't touched. But God sends his Spirit. The Spirit comes to reside inside the new person. The Spirit does battle, with us, against sin in the mortal flesh. We slip and fail, we stumble, we backslide. We don't fall. In that we sin in this 'other' manner we can be forgiven as we go. And we are always forgiven: "for he is patient and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from every unrighteousness" No conditions for those that are in Christ. "No condemnation for those in Christ" And rather than rejoice in the fact that they can sin all they like and not lose salvation, such a person will have a different view on sin. They are now afterall, children of God. It tends to change ones view. And the Holy Spirit, being inside, reminds us when we forget.
The battle with sin goes on until sin does what sin must do. It kills our mortal flesh. Death. Then heaven. Sure thing.
Our righteousness comes from God. We get it purely because we believe in him. Gods righteousness is not like works-based righteousness. It is not filthy rags. Paul was so confident in the power and certainty of God-given righteousness (as opposed to self-earned) that he was moved to say:
"For I am convinced that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to seperate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus."
Amen.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by truthlover, posted 11-09-2005 2:24 PM truthlover has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 231 by truthlover, posted 11-09-2005 10:57 PM iano has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 227 of 303 (258198)
11-09-2005 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by ringo
11-09-2005 12:38 PM


Re: Seeking, Striving, Trying
Ringo writes:
It's the ones who don't "love thy neighbour" who are punished:
Hands up those who have ever not loved their neighbour. Listen to Ringo and tremble. I have a prophesy: the prophesy is that the Rizla paper that Ringo will attempt to insert between those who haven't loved their neighbour and are punished and those who haven't loved their neighbour and won't be punished will have the word "Try" written on it. I have another prophesy: there won't be any verse reference put on it.
Where's Charles Knight - he'd love this

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by ringo, posted 11-09-2005 12:38 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 229 by nwr, posted 11-09-2005 5:08 PM iano has replied
 Message 230 by ringo, posted 11-09-2005 5:39 PM iano has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 228 of 303 (258200)
11-09-2005 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 223 by truthlover
11-09-2005 2:24 PM


Re: Righteous vs Unrighteous
truthlover writes:
In the end, it boils down to something very simple..."He who practices righteousness is righteous (duh!)."
Simple....hmmm
And what we'll have at the end of all that is 10 squillion people all with differing degrees of righteousness. Where is the cut off point between hell and heaven then? Because with 10 squillion people your going to have a situation where the difference between the last person to squeeze into glorious heaven and the next person - whose going to end up frying for life being down to one expletive too many.
It's got to be someone and so as to show a genuine love for my brother...
F**K!
(but maybe that demonstration of love for another just got me 10 places up the queue and into heaven....)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by truthlover, posted 11-09-2005 2:24 PM truthlover has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 232 by truthlover, posted 11-09-2005 11:06 PM iano has replied

nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 229 of 303 (258201)
11-09-2005 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 227 by iano
11-09-2005 4:56 PM


Re: Seeking, Striving, Trying
Hands up those who have ever not loved their neighbour.
I'll 'fess up. I have never even met my neighbor to the north, nor the one across the street. I do get along very well with the neighbor to the south.
Listen to Ringo and tremble.
I'm not trembling. I haven't had any disagreements with the neighbors I haven't met. I simply chose not to intrude on their privacy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by iano, posted 11-09-2005 4:56 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 233 by iano, posted 11-10-2005 6:22 AM nwr has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 230 of 303 (258211)
11-09-2005 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 227 by iano
11-09-2005 4:56 PM


Re: Seeking, Striving, Trying
iano writes:
Hands up those who have ever not loved their neighbour.
Compare these two verses:
quote:
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
and:
quote:
Mat 22:39 ... Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
Notice that it doesn't say, "Thou shalt love thy neighbour with all thy heart and with all thy soul and with all thy mind." Nor does it say, "Thou shalt succeed 100% in loving thy neighbour all of the time."
It says, "Love thy neighbour as thyself.
Jesus once again:
quote:
Mat 25:35 For I was hungry, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Is your neighbour hungry? Make him a sandwich. Is he thirsty? Give him your last Guinness. Is he wandering the streets with no place to go? Let him sleep on your couch. Does he need a warm coat for the Canadian winter? Give him one of yours. Is he sick or in prison? Visit him.
If you would like your neighbour to do any of those things for you, do it for him. That's what it means to love thy neighbour as thyself.
Stop pretending it can't be done and start doing it.
quote:
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by iano, posted 11-09-2005 4:56 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 237 by iano, posted 11-10-2005 8:24 AM ringo has replied
 Message 238 by iano, posted 11-10-2005 8:49 AM ringo has replied

truthlover
Member (Idle past 4059 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 231 of 303 (258341)
11-09-2005 10:57 PM
Reply to: Message 226 by iano
11-09-2005 4:47 PM


Re: Righteous vs Unrighteous
I think it is very relevant indeed. I have been stating that the only way a person can be made righteous in Gods sight is if they have their righteousness given to them by God.
You have been stating that a person can be righteous without practicing righteousness. You have said dozens of things, and I could chase you all over the Bible while you jump from any one of those things to another without ever answering anything.
I want to address only one thing you said. You said that a person can be righteous in God's sight without practicing righteousness. Then you are quoting 1 Jn 3:9, which says that a person born of God does not commit sin, as though this somehow supports you instead of flatly contradicting you. Completely bizarre.
You even say, "And if they do then good works (pleasing to God that is) follow as a matter of course."
Great, then let's see them follow, because only the person who practices righteousness is righteous in God's sight. That's what 1 Jn 3:7 says. The source of those good works has nothing at all to do with whether they have to be there to be righteous in God's sight.
It is utter nonsense to say that good works will happen as a matter of course, and then to deny that those good works are possible as you have. Craziness! At that point, no discussion is happening. That's some sort of babbling or something.
I pointed out to you that you only have to go to verse 9, which says "whoever is born of God...cannot commit sin". It is being born of God that puts a stop to sin here. Thus, a flat contradiction only two verses on - it would appear. Which is it: you trying to do it or God ensuring you don't do it.
What in the world are you talking about??? What sort of sane person would find any sort of apparent contradiction between 1 Jn 3:7 and 3:9? One says that the person who practices righteousness in righteous just as Christ is righteous, and the other says that the person born of God cannot commit sin. They absolutely agree.
Which is it: you trying to do it or God ensuring you don't do it.
I don't know who you're talking to, or why you think this has anything to do with what we're talking about. Maybe you've just got yourself into so many discussions you can't keep them all straight, but nothing you wrote makes any sense at all.
You said that a person could be righteous in God's sight without practicing righteousness. Now that contradicts 1 Jn 3:7, but 1 Jn 3:9 doesn't.
You said that it's impossible for a person to practice 1 Jn 3:7, which is weird for a person who claims to believe the Bible. But worse, you are somehow suggesting that 1 Jn 3:9 has something to do with making it impossible.
You're holding discussions with other people about trying, but you're not holding any discussion about trying with me. I'll give you, as I said in your last post, your idea that God is totally the source without a person's trying (bizarre of an idea as that is, I'll give it to you).
Trying or not trying, the person who is righteous in God's sight is the one who practices righteousness. That's what is says, and 1 Jn 3:9 completely backs this up.
You have got to be the only person in the whole earth who finds an apparent contradiction in those two verses unless there's someone else who's gotten tangled in theological web you're apparently tangled in.
This isn't rocket science. This isn't difficult. This isn't deep interpretation.
And again, trying has nothing to do with what we're talking about here, which is the assertion you made that a person can be righteous in God's sight without practicing righteousness (and worse, that this is impossible!!!)
And John says in verse 9 that a person who is a child of God cannot sin. Are you trying to tell me that you never, ever sin Truthlover. I don't mean tryin' now. I mean, you cannot sin.
Can or can't here is irrelevant. Either only a person who practices righteousness is righteous, as 1 Jn 3:7 says, or 1 Jn 3:7 is wrong or nonsense.
If you want to take 1 Jn 3:9 to mean that a person born of God cannot commit even one sin, go ahead. Then you'll be right, even according to John (1:8-10), that this isn't true for anyone. But you still won't have contradicted 1 Jn 3:7 or produced a good reason to ignore it or disagree with it.
I don't think 1 Jn 3:9 says that a person born of God cannot commit even one sin. Most translators agree with me on this ("the person born of God cannot continue sinning" fits the Greek present tense better), but even if they didn't, you have produced no good reason to disagree with 1 Jn 3:7, which I still say ought to have "duh!" at the end of it.
As for you Gospel at the end, we could chase each other all over the Bible, and I'm confident I could force you to have to explain away dozens of verses, which would make your position look terrible. But that's just a big mess. Let's stick to the one point. Can a person who does not practice righteousness be righteous in God's sight.
John says no, and there's nothing in 1 Jn 3:9 that remotely contradicts that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by iano, posted 11-09-2005 4:47 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 235 by iano, posted 11-10-2005 7:58 AM truthlover has replied

truthlover
Member (Idle past 4059 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 232 of 303 (258343)
11-09-2005 11:06 PM
Reply to: Message 228 by iano
11-09-2005 5:06 PM


Re: Righteous vs Unrighteous
Simple....hmmm
And what we'll have at the end of all that is 10 squillion people all with differing degrees of righteousness.
Um, I'm sorry you object to 1 Jn 3:7, and that you think it makes it very difficult for God to judge or something. You're the one appealing to the Bible. I'm sorry you don't like what it says, and you think the results will be awful. Maybe you should appeal to a different source of authority or something.
If you want to stick with the Bible, consider this. John said to let no one deceive you at the start of 1 Jn 3:7. Three verses later, he says the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil is "obvious," because whoever doesn't practice righteousness is not of God.
So, my thought is that you say it will be impossible to tell the difference if practicing righteousness shows the difference. John says it will be obvious. John says not to let anyone deceive us; we should agree with him. You say John is inspired by God.
Is the problem with your position "obvious"?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by iano, posted 11-09-2005 5:06 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 236 by iano, posted 11-10-2005 8:21 AM truthlover has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 233 of 303 (258375)
11-10-2005 6:22 AM
Reply to: Message 229 by nwr
11-09-2005 5:08 PM


Re: Seeking, Striving, Trying
Suppose it depends on what you see as a neighbour. Is that the people living on either side of you. Or could it apply in a wider context?
Your a homeless person. Its winter, it's Christmas. Your lonely, and cold but you need to stay out to get the money for a hostel tonight and to get food. You yearn for someone to stop from the rush of present buying. To stop and talk to you for a little while, to listen to you and your life. To share a little of this Christmas with you.
People throw money in your cup but they don't look at you or at best say something like "merry Christmas". But no one stops to talk to you. All too busy with themselves, none prepared to break the barrier that only they can break.
Next time you see a tramp begging nwr, take up a position and observe. Do a rough poll of how many treat the tramp as they would like to be treated if they were in that position. And how many don't
Such a seemingly simple command. So impossible to follow

This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by nwr, posted 11-09-2005 5:08 PM nwr has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 239 by ringo, posted 11-10-2005 10:15 AM iano has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 234 of 303 (258380)
11-10-2005 7:35 AM
Reply to: Message 224 by truthlover
11-09-2005 2:28 PM


Re: Seeking, Striving, Trying
Hey Truthlover,
Maybe you will talk to me and not at me. I am really interested in this subject.
8:6
For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
8:7
because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
8:8
and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
quote:
It follows that up by saying, "You are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God is in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to him" (Rom 8:9).
OK, given what is also said before 8:8, if one has the spirit of Christ (the annointed) could that also be taken as if one has the disposition of the annointed? Be like Jesus.
The mind that is set on the flesh does not subject itself to the law of God or is not able to supposedly. Some people have difficulty abiding by the rules.
So if one abides by the rules and is kind to those they come in contact with, wouldn't they be behaving like Jesus? Wouldn't they be representative of the spirit of the annointed? IMO, there are people who are inherently good, whether they are "believers" or not.
A God who can create such a complex universe would surely know who is truly good and who isn't and could understand the confusion man has created concerning religion.
Laws come about because of the wicked, not because of the good.

Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission. -Eleanor Roosevelt-

This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by truthlover, posted 11-09-2005 2:28 PM truthlover has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 242 by truthlover, posted 11-10-2005 12:40 PM purpledawn has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 235 of 303 (258384)
11-10-2005 7:58 AM
Reply to: Message 231 by truthlover
11-09-2005 10:57 PM


Re: Righteous vs Unrighteous
iano writes:
I think it is very relevant indeed. I have been stating that the only way a person can be made righteous in Gods sight is if they have their righteousness given to them by God.
truthlover writes:
I want to address only one thing you said. You said that a person can be righteous in God's sight without practicing righteousness. Then you are quoting 1 Jn 3:9, which says that a person born of God does not commit sin, as though this somehow supports you instead of flatly contradicting you. Completely bizarre.
Have a look at John 3:9 (your preferred the NIV version) in full:
No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.
And later in the letter, John 5:18
We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God (Christ) keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him.
And in Romans 3:21
But now a righteousness from God is revealed.. which is by faith from first to last (ie: not works)
In all three cases, the action, the cause, is from God - not the person. "Cannot" or "cannot continue" matters not. It would seem that if a person sins then they are continuing to sin. Or maybe you can explain how someone who 'cannot continue' to do something can continue to do it?
I can tell you the way Paul sees it. A child of God is made one spiritually. It is only spirit which is a child of God. Not flesh. It is spirit that cannot continue in sin, that can only do righteousness in Gods sight (by being in Christ). It can only be this to which John refers (otherwise he contradicts Paul). That is all that fits. Remember, the context of the passage generally is 'recognising the children of God'. He is talking about the attributes of a child of God. One of which is that they do righteousness. He makes no mention of sin where it exists. That part of us that is not a child of God. The part which Paul explains as being the place where sin is 'attached to' but not 'in', the child of God. Our (children of Gods..) mortal flesh.
Context and overview TL, that's where its at. Not latching limpet- like to a single verse and forming your doctrine from it
You said that it's impossible for a person to practice 1 Jn 3:7, which is weird for a person who claims to believe the Bible. But worse, you are somehow suggesting that 1 Jn 3:9 has something to do with making it impossible.
You'd have to see it as I described it above. Spirit declared righteous by God, sin residing from then only in mortal flesh. It is impossible for Spirit to sin in the sense of being seen as unrighteous because of it...and impossible for mortal flesh not to sin. A child of God is exhorted to put to death the deeds of the flesh, or sin in his flesh. It is a process and this he can try do. But it pertains not to his righteousness. This process of putting sin to death is sanctification not salvation. Sin allowed to occur in mortal flesh is not continuing in sin. Not continuing in sin pertains to spirit.
It is also impossible to for a non-child of God to put to death the deeds of the flesh. He may very well do alot better than a child of God. But it ends on nought for him. What counts for salvation is whether or not a persons spirit has been declared righteous by God or not. Putting to death deeds of the flesh doesn't help a non-child of God to salvation. "By the deeds of the law shall no man be seen as righteous in his sight". Following the law to get salvation is barking up the wrong tree.
For a child of God, works has nothing at all to do with salvation. He is already righteous. He has Christs righteousness and wears it as a coat over him. Works are only benefical in the sense of sanctification - being made pure (or to put it anotherway: being made a good citizen of heaven. A child is already a citizen of heaven)
Can or can't here is irrelevant. Either only a person who practices righteousness is righteous, as 1 Jn 3:7 says, or 1 Jn 3:7 is wrong or nonsense.
I'll make the assumption that you think all of what I've said above is rubbish. I'll also make the assumption that you sin. Now when you sin you are not doing righteousness. If you are not doing righteousness then you are, according to the bible a child of the devil. You might say you are trying and thats what counts.
If so, you are bang on topic and should be able to point where noone else has been able to thus far. Where is trying contained in the bible. Because it seems to me that the 'triers' take a "glass half full approach" to this:
When I do righteousness, I am righteous and I will be saved
When I don't do righteousness, I'm not righteous and I will be damned
And the assumption is made that the former will hold true. But why not equally, the latter?
Where is the dividing line between salvation and damnation? Trying
This message has been edited by iano, 10-Nov-2005 02:52 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by truthlover, posted 11-09-2005 10:57 PM truthlover has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by truthlover, posted 11-10-2005 12:45 PM iano has not replied
 Message 248 by truthlover, posted 11-10-2005 1:01 PM iano has not replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 236 of 303 (258393)
11-10-2005 8:21 AM
Reply to: Message 232 by truthlover
11-09-2005 11:06 PM


Re: Righteous vs Unrighteous
Um, I'm sorry you object to 1 Jn 3:7,
Who? Me? I love every word of it. See my comments on "doctrine forming from a verse".
because whoever doesn't practice righteousness is not of God.
If you insist on forming a doctrine from a verse it would do to get the words right The word in 1John 3:7 is 'do' not 'practice'. Practice can be used in all kinds of ways. It leaves room for much wiggling; inserting implications of "2 steps forward, 1 step back" for example. But that's not there. Just: Do. And if you examine yourself you will find that very often you don't do: anger, deceit, lies, selfishness, greed etc. The menu is big enough for us all to find ample something that takes our fancy. So, seeing as you often do and often don't, which is it, child or not a child. And on what basis?
This message has been edited by iano, 10-Nov-2005 01:46 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by truthlover, posted 11-09-2005 11:06 PM truthlover has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by truthlover, posted 11-10-2005 1:12 PM iano has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 237 of 303 (258395)
11-10-2005 8:24 AM
Reply to: Message 230 by ringo
11-09-2005 5:39 PM


Re: Seeking, Striving, Trying
It says, "Love thy neighbour as thyself.
It doesn't say how often. So once should be enough shouldn't it. In which case everyone I imagine gets to heaven. Or does it mean all the time - which is clearly impossible
So which is it Ringo. Try? Cos thats the point of this thread. Try to show try.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by ringo, posted 11-09-2005 5:39 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by ringo, posted 11-10-2005 10:22 AM iano has not replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 238 of 303 (258401)
11-10-2005 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 230 by ringo
11-09-2005 5:39 PM


Re: Seeking, Striving, Trying
Ringo writes:
Is your neighbour hungry? Make him a sandwich. Is he thirsty? Give him your last Guinness. Is he wandering the streets with no place to go? Let him sleep on your couch. Does he need a warm coat for the Canadian winter? Give him one of yours. Is he sick or in prison? Visit him. If you would like your neighbour to do any of those things for you, do it for him. That's what it means to love thy neighbour as thyself.
Stop pretending it can't be done and start doing it.
Could you supply the name of the tramp you have living in your home at the moment...
Actually, make that the names of the 10 tramps you have living in your home.
Stop pretending it can't be done and start doing it
This message has been edited by iano, 10-Nov-2005 01:49 PM
This message has been edited by iano, 10-Nov-2005 02:54 PM
This message has been edited by iano, 10-Nov-2005 02:54 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by ringo, posted 11-09-2005 5:39 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 241 by ringo, posted 11-10-2005 10:24 AM iano has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 239 of 303 (258424)
11-10-2005 10:15 AM
Reply to: Message 233 by iano
11-10-2005 6:22 AM


Re: Seeking, Striving, Trying
iano writes:
Such a seemingly simple command. So impossible to follow
You continue to demonstrate that you don't understand what a command is.
By your own analogy, the soldier who tries to obey a command is a hero.

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by iano, posted 11-10-2005 6:22 AM iano has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 240 of 303 (258426)
11-10-2005 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 237 by iano
11-10-2005 8:24 AM


Re: Seeking, Striving, Trying
iano writes:
It says, "Love thy neighbour as thyself.
It doesn't say how often.
It doesn't tell you when you can stop - thus implying you can only stop when you are finished.
Let's look at your own analogy of the soldiers in the trench. The command is not, "Go over the top and stand milling around in no-man's land." The command is, "Capture the enemy position."
And, of course, any soldier who is killed while trying to obey that command has done his duty to the best of his ability.
Similarly, when you have fed every hungry person, etc., you can stop. If you stop before the job is finished, you are willfully disobeying the command, and you will be punished. If you try your best to obey the command, you will be rewarded.

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by iano, posted 11-10-2005 8:24 AM iano has not replied

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