God says this, and God says that

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If somebody on an acid trip claims to have met the president, does that mean that Colin Powell is a junkie? Yeah if you stimulate the right parts of the brain you can replicate spiritual experiences. Doesn't mean the same parts of the brain are not being stimulated by other things, even possibly supernatural influences.

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True, but it does mean that personal "spiritual" experiences alone do not constitute proof of, or even evidence for, the supernatural.PE

I think, John, most of your difficulty with God is that you're just not an insider.You're not supposed to test God because that is cheating. It's like taking an exam with the answer key. You have to earn your faith through diligence. If you want to walk with God, you've got to find Him first. It isn't hard to start out, it doesn't take long either, but you have to make an effort first, with at least enough faith that you won't immediately reject whatever the result is. You're going to have suspend your disbelief and you're going to have be humble. I don't think that's unreasonable for anyone, I managed just fine. If you refuse to do these things, why should God do your work for you? You earn what you work for just as the believers do. God has done a lot for you already, but you have to make a conscious decision and stick with it to get the best results.Until then, don't expect anything so blatant you can't explain it away as coincidence. I happen to believe that there is "a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven, upon which all blessings are predicated" and it is through adherence to that law that you might find answers to the question of whether or not there is a God, if you would only devote the time and interest to find out for yourself.Otherwise, it's easy for you to post comments like "I can't believe! I'm set up for failure! It's unfair!" when the path is clear for you but you refuse to follow it. I admit having little sympathy for that because it is a consequence of one's own inaction and one's own self-inflicted ignorance. This state of mind amazes me: blame God for your non-belief and, then, don't show any interest in God because you don't believe! It's circularity. It is also an easy way to shirk the knowledge that there are certain obligations in life beyond eating, drinking, and breathing, and that you should be humble.

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True, but it does mean that personal "spiritual" experiences alone do not constitute proof of, or even evidence for, the supernatural.

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Not necessarily. Chemical-induced experiences have a known cause. "Spiritual" experiences do not (but we can speculate). The only thing surgery and chemical induced experiences demonstrate is that there are parts of the brain responsible for "spiritual" experiences. To my knowledge, what sets these off, and why, is not known. Plus, I'm not convinced that chemical/surgical/field induced experiences are the same as religious experiences, even if they do occur in the same regions of the brain.(Interestingly enough, my church councils its members to avoid excessive caffeine and neurological stims because they "block" spiritual things. On these grounds I will at least concede that brain chemistry plays some role in "spiritual" experiences, just as brain chemistry plays a huge role in consciousness but Christians believe a "spirit" or "soul" is kicking around in there as well.)Something is causing those experiences to happen, either way. If I'm not smoking hashish or massaging my brain with a surgical pick on Sunday mornings, I have to wonder, what causes that sensation? How is it, that people new to a religion, "discover" it and know exactly what the missionaries were talking about when they ask about it?And, even if it is entirely biological, is there anything even slightly harmful about it, to justify atheism?

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Originally posted by gene90:
I think, John, most of your difficulty with God is that you're just not an insider.

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This is the easy answer.

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You're not supposed to test God because that is cheating. It's like taking an exam with the answer key.

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Your analogy doesn't make sense to me.

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You have to earn your faith through diligence.

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Earn faith? Isn't that oxymoronic?

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If you want to walk with God, you've got to find Him first.

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Cute.

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It isn't hard to start out, it doesn't take long either, but you have to make an effort first, with at least enough faith that you won't immediately reject whatever the result is.

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So you'll be starting you quest for Thor soon then? With just enough faith that you won't immediately reject whatever the result?

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You're going to have suspend your disbelief and you're going to have be humble.

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This is getting trite, gene. In any other arena you'd realize how absurd this logic is.

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If you refuse to do these things, why should God do your work for you?

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My work? You mean fasting, beating myself and taking drugs so I can talk to him?

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You earn what you work for just as the believers do.

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ok ????

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God has done a lot for you already, but you have to make a conscious decision and stick with it to get the best results.

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Nope. Twas the Easter bunny helping out. And you can't prove differently using the same logic you've been using so far. Its absurd.

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Until then, don't expect anything so blatant you can't explain it away as coincidence.

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In other words, don't expect anything that might qualify as evidence. This is insane, gene.

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I happen to believe that there is "a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven, upon which all blessings are predicated" and it is through adherence to that law that you might find answers to the question of whether or not there is a God, if you would only devote the time and interest to find out for yourself.

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Now I am going to get offended. Don't pretend to know what time and effort I have put into finding out for myself. My life has been devoted to it.

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Otherwise, it's easy for you to post comments like "I can't believe! I'm set up for failure! It's unfair!" when the path is clear for you but you refuse to follow it.

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The path isn't clear, gene. And there is no way to investigate, as your entire post has explained.

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I admit having little sympathy for that because it is a consequence of one's own inaction and one's own self-inflicted ignorance.

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I admit having little respect for this kind of arrogant self-righteous crap.

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This state of mind amazes me: blame God for your non-belief and, then, don't show any interest in God because you don't believe!

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Don't pretend to know me. It is irritating. I believe what I believe because I have spent the last twenty years tearing myself apart.

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It's circularity.

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Funny, considering the post you have composed.

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It is also an easy way to shirk the knowledge that there are certain obligations in life beyond eating, drinking, and breathing, and that you should be humble.

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Sorry, the easy way out is 'a book told me so'------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

Okay anywhere in history was it standard procedure for a peasant to storm into the throne room making demands. Someone who doesn't even know the king storms in and starts demanding things of his king. How often do you think this aproach had a positive result for the peasant? How often do you think the king just listened and allowed this kind of insubordination? This is similiar to marching up to God with some trivial test. Since when does the potter answer to the clay?This is the humbling yourself part. Approaching God with respect realizing that this is God you are talking to. That this is the ultimate throne room. And with thanksgiving in your heart. God wants us to come before him thankful that we CAN come before him. Not fuming rambling and demanding answers.I thought Gene put it well when he said you have to search God out and humble yourself before him (bow at his throne so to speak)until he feels he wants to talk to you. It's a very basic principle of respect. Do you answer to someone who comes at you in arrogance, slandering your character before they even know you? Why then should God?------------------
saved by grace

Gene,We're making the same point from two different sides. The fact that certain "spiritual" responses can be elicited using electrodes in the brain does not, as you rightly point out, mean that God is not behind any spiritual experience - it may even be his mechanism for elucidating one.BUT it does mean that we shouldn't take it for granted that just becasue somebody's had a religious experience it provides any evidence whatsoever for the existence of God. It could just be a freak chemical reaction in the brain and you wouldn't know the difference.We have to consider the naturalistic explanations first, I'm sure God would have wanted it that way

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And, even if it is entirely biological, is there anything even slightly harmful about it, to justify atheism?

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I don't understand the question. Can you rephrase?PE

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Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
Okay anywhere in history was it standard procedure for a peasant to storm into the throne room making demands.

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Where is history is it standard procedure for a kng to NOT demonstrate his power?

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How often do you think this aproach had a positive result for the peasant?

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The effect would have likely been very unpleasant for the peasant, but he would have gotten a response. That is the point, Funk. There is no response. NONE.

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How often do you think the king just listened and allowed this kind of insubordination?

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I would think that the king would cut the insubordination very short. YOUR GOD DOES NOT. Again, this is exactly the point.

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Since when does the potter answer to the clay?

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When does the clay talk back? I'd answer if it did.

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This is the humbling yourself part.

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This is the shutting off your brain part.

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Approaching God with respect realizing that this is God you are talking to.

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Funk, would you walk into a room and start talking to a being you can not see, hear, smell, taste or touch because someone told you there was a being in the room? This is what you ask. Would you walk in and start chatting on faith? I doubt it. And if you did, how long would you talk before giving up? Would you show respect to the empty room? Probably not. And after hours, days, weeks and months of jabbering to the empty room, certainly you would show no respect to it. Would you humble yourself to the invisible silent being in the empty room? Nope.

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Do you answer to someone who comes at you in arrogance, slandering your character before they even know you? Why then should God?

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No. I do not answer to such a person, but I ANSWER someone who comes at me in arrogance, slandering my character.------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

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Where is history is it standard procedure for a kng to NOT demonstrate his power?

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The effect would have likely been very unpleasant for the peasant, but he would have gotten a response. That is the point, Funk. There is no response. NONE.

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I would think that the king would cut the insubordination very short. YOUR GOD DOES NOT. Again, this is exactly the point.

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This King is a different kind of king he's a king, friend and brother to those who choose to bow their knee down. There is no other king like this one John. Any king can make you serve him. What king makes you thirst to serve him? What king is like your brother to lift you up? What king is your friend always there by your side with that wise counsel?Hebrews 2:5, It is not to angels that he has subjected the world to come, about which we are speaking. 6; But there is a place where someone has testified:
"What is man that you are mindful of him,
the son of man that you care for him?
7You made him a little[1] lower than the angels;
you crowned him with glory and honor
8 and put everything under his feet.?[2] In putting everything under him, God left nothing that is not subject to him. Yet at present we do not see everything subject to him. 9; But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
10; In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom, and through whom, everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering. 11; Both the one who makes men holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers. 12; He says,
"I will declare your name to my brothers;
in the presence of the congregation I will sing your praises."[3] 13And again,
"I will put my trust in him."[4] And again he says,
"Here am I, and the children God has given me."[5]
14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death--that is, the devil-- 15; and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death. 16; For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham's descendants. 17; For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for[6] the sins of the people. 18; Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.Yes,you know a normal king offended like that would have cut off your head or thrown you in the dungeon. This King cries. He wants to know you. This King has already laid down his life to know you.Hebrews:121; Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance, the race marked out for us. 2; Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy, set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3; Consider him who endured such opposition from sinful men, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.
4; In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5; And you have forgotten that word of encouragement that addresses you as sons:
"My son, do not make light of the Lord's discipline,
and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,
6; because the Lord disciplines those he loves,
and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son."[1]This is not a normal King, as you might guess by now. Not the kind of King that will destroy you for this insubordination. Oh praise the grace of God! Would I walk into a room and ask someone I can't see, to answer me, would I give that someone respect, not normally I don't think so. Somehow I did, and that someone reached out and picked me up. When I laid that knee down, that broken self, that empty lost apathetic self, was taken. It's gone. Oh praise the grace of God!

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No. I do not answer to such a person, but I ANSWER someone who comes at me in arrogance, slandering my character.

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See John, this king is above all kings. This is where the statement "As the heavens are above the earth, so are my thoughts above your thoughts." He weeps, and knows our thoughts. He knows what hangs us up. He knows our frustration; has felt our pain, has known temptation, and has known that seperation from God. "My God my God, why has thou forsaken me".
This King knows your heart. No other King would.Forgive me everyone, who reads this post. If it angered you, and you thought it was preachy,I'm sorry. At this particular moment my heart aches for everyone. Oh that you knew this King!
My intention is not to play holy christian guy, but to show you who this king is!------------------
saved by grace

I don't pretend to know all about God. I do know that I have seen and felt his hand at work in and around my life. I have had times where I become drunk on the Holy Spirit. That probably sounds ridiculous to you guys but it sure solidifies my relationship to God. As a former addict of all sorts the high that my God can provide is untouchable by any drug or cocktail of drugs I could dream up.funky,This sort of backs up my theory that it takes a certain kind of person to believe in God, all you have done is substituted one addiction with another, it is part of your nature to be addicted to something.Also, just like the drug addict, you will do anything and say anything to get your 'god-kick'Best Wishesbrian.------------------
Remembering events that never happened is a dangerous thing!

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Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
This King is a different kind of king he's a king, friend and brother to those who choose to bow their knee down. There is no other king like this one John.

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Then you have invalidated your own analogy. This would also qualify as back-pedaling to save an argument I've shown to be poorly constructed. It doesn't speak much for your credibility, though I don't think any of this is intentional on your part.

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Any king can make you serve him. What king makes you thirst to serve him?

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The king that controls the aquaduct. Actually, a lot of power can be and has been wielded by he who controls the water supply.

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What king is like your brother to lift you up? What king is your friend always there by your side with that wise counsel?

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You must enjoy gutting your own argument.

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Yes,you know a normal king offended like that would have cut off your head or thrown you in the dungeon. This King cries. He wants to know you. This King has already laid down his life to know you.

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Ditto.

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This is not a normal King, as you might guess by now.

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Then why the analogy?

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Not the kind of King that will destroy you for this insubordination.

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This isn't the guy to who toasted Sodom?

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Would I walk into a room and ask someone I can't see, to answer me, would I give that someone respect, not normally I don't think so.

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There you go. All this trouble and you understand.

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Somehow I did, and that someone reached out and picked me up. When I laid that knee down, that broken self, that empty lost apathetic self, was taken.

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Funk, I felt much the same fifteen years ago when I first read Diary of a Drug Fiend. Does this mean Crowley picked me up and fixed my broken self? Not really. But by your logic it does.------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

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This is the easy answer.

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John, I have seen your website."Christians are evil" ? You write essays that promote pedophilia? You use your webspace to distribute pornography?And you wonder why God isn't in your life?You sound just like Nos482. Most of your replies were one-liners devoid of any sufficient material at all. I spent actual time writing my post and you will spend time in your replies if you wish to continue the thread. From the Forum Rules: As for the quote on Funkmaster's "god kick": Your argument is circular because you do not believe in God, therefore you see no reason to seek God. If you do not seek God, you will never believe in God.If I had not found a religion I liked, then eventually it would have been expedient for me to investigate Thor. However, Thor is way down the list because his following is somewhat diminished these days. A dead religion is not likely to be the correct religion because the gods (especially the Grecian gods) demanded appeasement. Christianity, however, is thriving.You assertion is not sound.Taken with your (and others, only Primordia Egg has acted appropriately in this thread) bad behavior, and the offensive commentaries on your personal website, are encouraging to me do what I should have done on the first appearance of Nos482: resign. Your comments are remarkably similar to those of Nos. You might want to consider that in the future.As for David unfamous, he is new and is clearly bitter. There is little point in debating him.I'll postpone judgement of the other one (hard to keep up with newcomers).[This message has been edited by gene90, 12-07-2002]

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Also, just like the drug addict, you will do anything and say anything to get your 'god-kick'

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Another ad hominem argument. Why do the resident atheists hate God so much?Perhaps I should resign from this thread, and let the atheists declare victory and leave them to their bigotry pedophilia and pornography.[This message has been edited by gene90, 12-07-2002]

Funk: I have debated John before but now I've seen his website. That is a serious factor here.Plus, I expect reasoned replies, not trite one-liners to my comments like "Cute" or "Better than a book told me so" that add nothing to the debate but only serve to insult my intelligence.That's called "Trolling" and it's quite similar to another atheist that was posting here recently, who was eventually banned for what John did in his last post: being inflammatory and not addressing the material.[This message has been edited by gene90, 12-07-2002]

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Originally posted by gene90:

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"Christians are evil" ?

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Sorry you disagree. This makes me a sick puppie?You write essays that promote pedophilia?[/quote]Like hell, gene. I've went through this crap with nos482 at length and I do not feel like doing it again. The slander is going to piss me off very quickly.

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You use your webspace to distribute pornography?

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What pornography?

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And you wonder why God isn't in your life?

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No, I don't. It isn't hard to understand why a non-existent entity isn't taking part in my life.

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By the way, after your comment about using drugs to see God

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It happens to be a terribly common means to the end. Virtually every culture used such methods at one point or another.

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taken with the views you promote on your personal website, I no longer consider your message worth further response.

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Do you habitually duck out when your views are challenged? Or is this just a means to avoid the topic?------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

Fair enough, I'll stick around a little longer.Is this your website? http://www.hells-handmaiden.comIt's a fair presumption that it is because you keep it in your sig file.If not, let it be known to us that it isn't and my accusations will be moot. Is God non-existant, or have you not gone looking? How do you know there is no God?Admit that you don't know if there is or is not a God and we can move on.

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Virtually every culture used such methods at one point or another.

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But I don't and I'm highly offended by this slander.Guidelines:

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Do you habitually duck out when your views are challenged?

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What challenge? Where is an actual reply worthy of comment?How about you spend an actual paragraph in rebuttal to one of my posts? [This message has been edited by gene90, 12-07-2002]