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Author Topic:   The beginning of the jihad in Europe?
CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6472 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 136 of 301 (258308)
11-09-2005 8:55 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by Silent H
11-09-2005 7:45 PM


Re: A prominent psychiatrist explains why Muslims assimilate less
The equivalence argument I speak of, is your equating fundamentalist Christians with islamists, and that you do so seeminly always and in all ways. It is apparent that Islamists are world wide and are perpetuating incredible violence around the globe. Christians are not. Whereas Islamists want the world terrorized into accepting islam, Christians attempt to convert peacefully. Whereas islamists want to rule the world under a Caliphate, Christians support democracy. Are there exceptions? Of course. But they are that, exceptions. Therefore, to equate evangelicals and islamists is to employ reflexive and non critical equivalence argumentation.
As for Israel, it is, indisputably, a liberal democracy. truly, it is absurd to say otherwise. Were you to live there, you'd pretty much feel as if you were in the US. Were you to live in an Arab country, you'd feel very much a foreigner, and one at risk at that. Thus, the Israel of today is radically different from the Israel of 2,000 years ago. In contrast, the Arab nations are far less different than then, and the islamists want to largely get rid of even that much difference.
Israel last fell to the Romans soon after Jesus. But jews remained along with Christians until Islam was created in the 7th century, and mohammed led battles to conquer the land for the invading Arabs. In other words, invaders ethnically cleansed the land of Jews, after a continual presence of about 2,700 years. But not entirely. Some Jews remained. Some returned over the years.
Not long after the Arab conquest, the land fell to general disuse, because it is desert. There were few permanent Arab towns, with most people beng nomads there temporarily or passing through to and from egypt. That is why no Arab state was ever created there. That is why jerusalem was just about never visited by important Arabs through all those years, not in the way that, say, mecca has been. When the ottoman empire formed about 500 years ago, it gained control of the land. The Ottomans treated it as the empire backwater it was. That is why they were only too happy to sell land to jews in the 19th century, often thinking them stupid for buying useless desert and swamp. But these Jews, being westerners, created industry, irrigated, and created services. That brought Arabs back, for jobs and other conveniences and opportunities.
After the fall of the ottomans, the empire was divided into 22 Arab states and the Jews were to get one tiny sliver, comprising less than 1/2 of 1 per cent of the ottoman empire. This was sanctioned by The League of Nations. But the british, official stewards, reneged on their obligations to the jews and league of Nations, because they were currying favour with arabs. So the land the Jews were to get got smaller and smaller, and then there was none.
As Israel was finally being formed after WW 11, the jews invited the Arabs there to create democratic state with them. Instead, they obnly too happily joined in with the 5 invading arab armies at Israel's birth. Some were expelled by Israel, as the 5th column enemies they were. Others left in advance of the invaders, as advised. But some stayed. That is why Israel has one million Arab citizens, who are in parlimant, in the media, even on the supreme court - which has often heard petitions from palestinians in the territories and ruled in favour of them.
essentially, Israel acted from the beginning like the liberal democracy it was born. It acted as would you, being the liberal democrat you are. Moreover, Israel was born a socialist democracy, given the leftward leanings of most Jews, especially then. Which may mean it may have been even more like you than realize.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Silent H, posted 11-09-2005 7:45 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by randman, posted 11-09-2005 9:11 PM CanadianSteve has not replied
 Message 140 by CanadianSteve, posted 11-09-2005 10:16 PM CanadianSteve has not replied
 Message 144 by Nighttrain, posted 11-09-2005 11:03 PM CanadianSteve has replied
 Message 152 by Silent H, posted 11-10-2005 8:34 AM CanadianSteve has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 137 of 301 (258310)
11-09-2005 9:00 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by Philip
11-09-2005 6:54 PM


Re: CS's Anti-Tolerationalistic Stance
Note: Are you proposing that children be taught Moslem/Ishtar hate-religion *at school*; that this might help protect those children from Moslem jihad?
Well, there is no such thing as Moslem/Ishtar hate-religion and perhaps if kids were taught about Islam in school maybe folk wouldn't make as stupid a mistake as saying something like "Moslem/Ishtar hate-religion".
But hell, I'd be happy if Evangelicals and Fundamentalists knew something about Christianity.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Philip, posted 11-09-2005 6:54 PM Philip has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by Philip, posted 11-11-2005 11:22 AM jar has replied

randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4898 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 138 of 301 (258315)
11-09-2005 9:09 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by Yaro
11-09-2005 8:29 PM


Re: How about MLK,jr?
Since when have pro-lifers used religion to argue for banning abortion. The majority of the arguments consist that it is killing of another human being.
It is the liberals insisting that it's OK even to take a half-born child and murder it, and then trying to demonize anyone that disagrees with them as trying to impose their religious beliefs on people.
just sicko if you ask me,...but that's the Left for ya!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by Yaro, posted 11-09-2005 8:29 PM Yaro has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by Nighttrain, posted 11-09-2005 11:11 PM randman has not replied
 Message 146 by Yaro, posted 11-09-2005 11:14 PM randman has not replied

randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4898 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 139 of 301 (258317)
11-09-2005 9:11 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by CanadianSteve
11-09-2005 8:55 PM


Re: A prominent psychiatrist explains why Muslims assimilate less
Good point about it's leftist beginnings.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by CanadianSteve, posted 11-09-2005 8:55 PM CanadianSteve has not replied

CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6472 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 140 of 301 (258333)
11-09-2005 10:16 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by CanadianSteve
11-09-2005 8:55 PM


Re: A prominent psychiatrist explains why Muslims assimilate less
PS: Ever notice that ISraeli Arabs (Israeli citizens, not those of the territories) have never rioted like french Arabs are? You might want to consider why...real reasons, not reflexive contrarian ones.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by CanadianSteve, posted 11-09-2005 8:55 PM CanadianSteve has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by Chiroptera, posted 11-09-2005 10:21 PM CanadianSteve has replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 141 of 301 (258337)
11-09-2005 10:21 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by CanadianSteve
11-09-2005 10:16 PM


Re: A prominent psychiatrist explains why Muslims assimilate less
Since Muslim Arabs have an instinctive hatred for liberty and freedom and will not be able to control their violent opposition to it, then clearly if Arabs aren't rioting in Israel it's because Israel must be a comfortable place (that is, neither free nor democratic) for them to live.
This message has been edited by Chiroptera, 10-Nov-2005 03:21 AM

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by CanadianSteve, posted 11-09-2005 10:16 PM CanadianSteve has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by CanadianSteve, posted 11-09-2005 10:45 PM Chiroptera has replied

CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6472 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 142 of 301 (258339)
11-09-2005 10:45 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by Chiroptera
11-09-2005 10:21 PM


Re: A prominent psychiatrist explains why Muslims assimilate less
Have I ever said that "Muslim Arabs have an instinctive hatred for liberty and freedom and will not be able to control their violent opposition to it?" If you believe that, please provide the quote. In fact, what i have said many, many times, is that democracy will moderate Arabs and their practise of the faith. That is one reason I have defended the war in iraq against many posters here and elsewhere. That Arabs are, generally speaking, peaceful citizens of israel is evidence for my thesis. What is instructive is this: Israeli Arabs are more assimilated as liberal democrats than are french Arabs. Israeli Arab women are, therefore, not nearly as repressed as are french Arab women, for example. Accordingly, they are not only better educated, but their birthrate is much lower.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Chiroptera, posted 11-09-2005 10:21 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by Chiroptera, posted 11-09-2005 10:52 PM CanadianSteve has replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 143 of 301 (258340)
11-09-2005 10:52 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by CanadianSteve
11-09-2005 10:45 PM


Re: A prominent psychiatrist explains why Muslims assimilate less
You know, CanadianSteve, it is multicultural tolerationists like you who are trying to turn our liberal democratic ideals into a suicide pact.
The War Verses in the Koran are quite clear. Any Muslim who truly believes in his religion simply cannot tolerate a liberal democratic society and must fight to convert the world to Islam, using force if necessary. If Arabs in Israel are living peaceably, it can only mean that Israel is an Islamic state.
It makes sense, actually. There is a world-wide Wahabbi conspiracy to bring the entire world under Sharia law. Clearly they have succeeded in Israel. It is reflexive contrarians like you who will not admit the obvious truth.
If that crypto-Islamist, Sharon, murders any more people in the name of Allah, the blood will be on your hands.

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by CanadianSteve, posted 11-09-2005 10:45 PM CanadianSteve has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by CanadianSteve, posted 11-09-2005 11:49 PM Chiroptera has replied

Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3993 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 144 of 301 (258342)
11-09-2005 11:03 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by CanadianSteve
11-09-2005 8:55 PM


Re: A prominent psychiatrist explains why Muslims assimilate less
Not long after the Arab conquest, the land fell to general disuse, because it is desert. There were few permanent Arab towns, with most people beng nomads there temporarily or passing through to and from egypt. That is why no Arab state was ever created there. That is why jerusalem was just about never visited by important Arabs through all those years, not in the way that, say, mecca has been.
Boy were those Crusaders (1096-1270) confused kiddies. They must have been invading the wrong country. All those towns, cities, forts, opponents belonging to another Holy Land. Even Saladin (Salah ed-Din Yusuf) must have been caught up in the delusion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by CanadianSteve, posted 11-09-2005 8:55 PM CanadianSteve has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by CanadianSteve, posted 11-09-2005 11:41 PM Nighttrain has replied

Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3993 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 145 of 301 (258344)
11-09-2005 11:11 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by randman
11-09-2005 9:09 PM


Re: How about MLK,jr?
It is the liberals insisting that it's OK even to take a half-born child and murder it, and then trying to demonize anyone that disagrees with them as trying to impose their religious beliefs on people.
just sicko if you ask me,...but that's the Left for ya!
So it`s o.k. for God-created diseases to kill or deform kiddies in the womb, put them through agony till they succumb while growing up?
Just sicko if you ask me....but that`s the Right for ya!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by randman, posted 11-09-2005 9:09 PM randman has not replied

Yaro
Member (Idle past 6495 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 146 of 301 (258345)
11-09-2005 11:14 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by randman
11-09-2005 9:09 PM


Re: How about MLK,jr?
It is the liberals insisting that it's OK even to take a half-born child and murder it, and then trying to demonize anyone that disagrees with them as trying to impose their religious beliefs on people.
just sicko if you ask me,...but that's the Left for ya!
Yep, that's exactly what the "liberls" (whatever that means) want. Pull the babys from the womb and dash them against the rocks.... wait that's from the bible, my bad.
No, you have an incredibly skewd version of the pro-choice possition. A human simply is not human at conception. But this is another debate ongoing in countless other threads in the EVC.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by randman, posted 11-09-2005 9:09 PM randman has not replied

CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6472 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 147 of 301 (258348)
11-09-2005 11:41 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by Nighttrain
11-09-2005 11:03 PM


Re: A prominent psychiatrist explains why Muslims assimilate less
In fact, the crusades were an effort to win back for Christians the land that arabs had successfully invaded and taken over. and more, much more. By that time Arabs had invaded and were occupying Spain and had been in france, from which they were eventually turned back. Moahmmed began an imperialist march that had stretched far and wide and was ongoing. It was in response to this imperialism that The Crusades were about.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Nighttrain, posted 11-09-2005 11:03 PM Nighttrain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by Nighttrain, posted 11-10-2005 3:46 AM CanadianSteve has replied

CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6472 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 148 of 301 (258350)
11-09-2005 11:49 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by Chiroptera
11-09-2005 10:52 PM


Re: A prominent psychiatrist explains why Muslims assimilate less
You're truly so irrational that it's pretty much impossible to carry on dialogue. You insult, then act hurt when there is any reciprocity of attitude. You misinterpret, then pretend that away when corrected. You attribute, then get angry when the truth of my position is stated.
The war verses are clear: have you not been lsitening to the worldwide Zislamist movement, including the governments of irana and Sudan? But there is a good side to Islam too. That is the side which is amenable to democracy. In a sense, democracy will mean Islam having to accept its peaceful message, while going into denial as to the martial Jiahd message. And that, i believe , will happen.
You do not object to what i say, but to what you imagine I say. But you are angry because i dare challenge idealistic and naive equivalence notions, and challenge denial about the truth of Islam's dark side and history. So be it; I'd rather not see my wife or daughters fitted for a Burkha.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Chiroptera, posted 11-09-2005 10:52 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by Chiroptera, posted 11-10-2005 8:07 AM CanadianSteve has replied

Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3993 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 149 of 301 (258371)
11-10-2005 3:46 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by CanadianSteve
11-09-2005 11:41 PM


Re: A prominent psychiatrist explains why Muslims assimilate less
It was in response to this imperialism that The Crusades were about.
Don`t think so, bud. It was a plot hatched by Pope Urban to achieve supremacy of the Western Church over Byzantium when the Eastern emperor asked for help driving back the Seljuk Turks.
Part of his stirring speech at Clermont: 'They have circumcised the Christians, either spreading the blood from the circumcision on the altars or pouring it in the baptismal fonts. And they cut open the navels of those whom they choose to torment with a loathsome death, tear out their most vital organs and tie them to a stake, drag them around and flog them, before killing them as they lie prone on the ground with all their entrails out. They tie some to posts and shoot at them with arrows, they order others to bare their necks and they attack them with drawn swords, trying to see whether they can cut off their heads with a single stroke'. (Crusades--Terry Jones and Alan Ereira).
Of course, this is one of the more lurid versions as we don`t have the original. Don`t think this got the good old boys stirred up as this was SOP in Europe. But when loot was mentioned, Urban nearly got trampled in the rush. When the noble Crusaders found poor pickin`s in the East, they did what all good Christians do and turned on their kin in Byzantium.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by CanadianSteve, posted 11-09-2005 11:41 PM CanadianSteve has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by CanadianSteve, posted 11-10-2005 8:33 AM Nighttrain has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 150 of 301 (258389)
11-10-2005 8:07 AM
Reply to: Message 148 by CanadianSteve
11-09-2005 11:49 PM


Re: A prominent psychiatrist explains why Muslims assimilate less
What's wrong, Steve? Didn't I use enough buzzwords?

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by CanadianSteve, posted 11-09-2005 11:49 PM CanadianSteve has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by CanadianSteve, posted 11-10-2005 8:47 AM Chiroptera has replied

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