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Author Topic:   By their fruits shall ye know them. (re: Fundamentalists and the environment)
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 16 of 39 (258050)
11-09-2005 8:03 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Omnivorous
11-08-2005 8:32 PM


Hi Omni....
Don;t know if this is more on topic than before. Here goes as I see it
iano writes:
that someone is called an evangelical or a Christian doesn't mean they are indeed a Christian
omnivorous writes:
Let's be clear. We are talking about a specific political demographic in the U.S. which has not only identified itself as conservative, evangelical, and Christian but has also organized (as they have every right to do) to affect political issues in ways sympathetic to their faith.
Communist leaders with dachas, fine caviar, large automobiles etc. They are called communists but they aren't in fact. "By their fruits ye shall know them". If a peoples individual and collective behavior screams "contradiction" then contradiction is possibly a part of the issue. 95% of people in Ireland identify themselves as Christian. But they have no interest in God in any way, shape or form as far as I can tell. Christian in name only as far as can be seen.
You may have a True Christian Magic Test, but I don't
I've got a spare if you want. $8.99 plus post and packaging (only a faux-leather cover though )
I will take them at their word. But I promise to count every environmentalist I meet who claims to be a Christian as a true one. I don't know what more I can do about that problem.
Fair enough. But then the problem would better be described in such a way. "People profess to be Christians but they act in ways which seem completely at odds with the behaviour one would expect of a Christian". That they aren't, in fact, Christians would be one possible factor to be taken into account...
Perhaps stout resistance would yield better results. I hear it worked pretty well for Jesus of couple of times.
I read of a speaker in one of your two houses who died a while back. I think he was a democrat. But the flood of praise of him came from both sides of the divide. Both sides set aside their emnity to acknowledge him as an unright, fair and honest individual, who didn't let his politics get in the way of his integrity. The flavor of the piece was striking by it's very rarity. A more general truism seems to be that Power Corrupts. A person who is a genuine Christian is subject to its corruptive power as is a non-Christian. The biblical exhortation "not to be of the world (and it's ways)" wasn't given for no reason. It is very easy to lose sight of the ball and to be drawn into the worlds way of doing things: to seek peer approval, to worry about getting voted in again, to blind oneself to the truth and to settle for a hollowed out version of it. To be precisely as Jesus isn't. Jesus was incorruptable - we're not
What he did resulted in his death. What the apostles did resulted, according to tradition - in their deaths. A Christian is told many times in the bible to expect persecution if they stand for Christ. In America it may not mean physical death. But it may mean death to peer approval, death to political career, death to power, death to influence. Big business is a powerful and voracious beast. And anyone who decides to stand up to it will be exposed to the full fury. Survival is not a given.
That many wilt in the face of it is hardly surprising. We can't all be Davids...
I don't think they would grant you that satan had dominion over all that.
If it was theirs to grant then fine. If not then what they think doesn't matter I'm afraid...
You point to a time when government could make big differences. That was then and this is now. Resources are dwindling, appetites have increased. The world is a more competitive place. Business has gotten bigger and more powerful, people more materialistic.
The concept that Government is free to dictate what business can and cannot do is a fallacy. Clean air is important - everyone recognises it. If it could be achieved without cost to the economy then it would be done. But it ain't that simple. Polluting processes are far cheaper to run (in the short term - the term which politicians find impossible to ignore) than clean ones. America has to compete with countries which it didn't have to before. Countries which pose a serious economic threat and which don't give a fiddlers about the environment. It cannot do so by adding untold cost onto its manufacturing industries. A Christian is as beholden to this reality as anyone else.
Why aren't the churches leading the struggle to treat it that way?"
Priority? The churches have many battles which didn't exist in the way the did before. You referred back to a time of simple days and home made apple pie. These days took place existed in a completely different environment (sic) than the one that exists today. The Christian world has left its Christian ethos behind to a very large extent. We live now in a secular, post-modern environment, where Christian values are lip-serviced by the community as opposed to being held as a true guide to how one should live. Not only in America but all throughout the Christian world. I read recently that Britain, if things continue as they are (small or no families in the 'white/'Christian' and typically large families in the ethnic/muslim communities) will, in 30 years or so be a predominantly Muslim country. The same is occurring in France and Germany. It is far harder to exert Christian influence in a world that has turned away from that as a core, given value system. And far harder for a Christian to hold onto to them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Omnivorous, posted 11-08-2005 8:32 PM Omnivorous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Omnivorous, posted 11-09-2005 8:30 AM iano has not replied
 Message 22 by Omnivorous, posted 11-10-2005 10:30 AM iano has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 17 of 39 (258051)
11-09-2005 8:10 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Omnivorous
11-06-2005 11:05 AM


Amy Grant Lyrics
Amy Grant, a popular Christian singer, sings an old favorite that I sung in church when I was seven:

This is my Father's world, and to my listening ears
All nature sings, and round me rings the music of the spheres.
This is my Father's world, the birds their carols raise,
The morning light, the lily white, declare their Maker's praise.
This is my Father's world: I rest me in the thought
Of rocks and trees, of skies and seas;
His hand the wonders wrought.
This Is My Father's World
This is my Father's world. O let me ne'er forget
That though the wrong seems oft so strong, God is the ruler yet.
This is my Father's world: why should my heart be sad?
The Lord is King; let the heavens ring!
God reigns; let the earth be glad!
This is my Father's world: He shines in all that's fair;
In the rustling grass I hear Him pass;
He speaks to me everywhere.
In the rustling grass I hear Him pass;
He speaks to me everywhere.
I agree with you that, sadly, many "political Christians" such as former interior secretary James Watt have a different worldview than the rest of us, but thre are many Christians who are as much pro-environment as anyone else. We are to be faithful and wise stewards of what we have been entrusted, and nowhere is it written that the planet is a throwaway!
This message has been edited by Phat, 11-09-2005 06:14 AM

This message is a reply to:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 18 of 39 (258053)
11-09-2005 8:21 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Omnivorous
11-08-2005 8:32 PM


Its all about prioriities
You bring up a good point when you say
"This world is a miraculous gift from God. Why aren't the churches leading the struggle to treat it that way?" Regardless of which party is in power, the evangelical right has the political clout to stop environmental depredations that are immoral, illegal, and tragic in their consequences to all.
and to be honest, many Christians are not as passionate about the planet as you may be. To them, although they are stewards of the environment, they do not venerate it or honor it as you do.
NIV writes:
Deut 4:15-20
15 You saw no form of any kind the day the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully, 16 so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman, 17 or like any animal on earth or any bird that flies in the air, 18 or like any creature that moves along the ground or any fish in the waters below. 19 And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars--all the heavenly array--do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things the LORD your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven.
(from New International Version)
The planet is our home, to be sure. It is to be taken care of, to be sure. Many Christians, however, are not in the same frame of mind as many environmentalists, who, the argument goes, virtually worship nature.

This message is a reply to:
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Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3977
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 19 of 39 (258056)
11-09-2005 8:30 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by iano
11-09-2005 8:03 AM


Thanks, iano. As usual, I will digest, actually do some work for my pay this morning, and then reply.

This message is a reply to:
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Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3977
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 20 of 39 (258058)
11-09-2005 8:32 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Phat
11-09-2005 8:10 AM


Re: Amy Grant Lyrics
Yes, Phat, that captures the regard that I recall and hold--though, of course, minus the theology .

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clpMINI
Member (Idle past 5164 days)
Posts: 116
From: Richmond, VA, USA
Joined: 03-22-2005


Message 21 of 39 (258215)
11-09-2005 5:45 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Omnivorous
11-08-2005 8:32 PM


Environmentalism
Omni,
Perhaps we need to look at how strongly environmentalists 'feel' about the environment. I feel strongly enough that environmental concerns guided by education, my occupation (I am an environmetal scientist), my politics, my car, and day-to-day activities. Maybe some of the Christian types look at these strong feelings and actions and think of Environmentalism as a religion of its own, and thus the confict.
`clpMINI

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Omnivorous, posted 11-08-2005 8:32 PM Omnivorous has replied

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Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3977
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 22 of 39 (258432)
11-10-2005 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by iano
11-09-2005 8:03 AM


Thanks for your reply, iano. I appreciate the evident thought and reflection. I will be brief in reply mostly because of a nasty flu-like bug, but also because I don't see much new.
iano writes:
Communist leaders with dachas, fine caviar, large automobiles etc. They are called communists but they aren't in fact. "By their fruits ye shall know them". If a peoples individual and collective behavior screams "contradiction" then contradiction is possibly a part of the issue. 95% of people in Ireland identify themselves as Christian. But they have no interest in God in any way, shape or form as far as I can tell. Christian in name only as far as can be seen.
Your point about the Soviet leadership is inarguable. I agree.
But we are a democracy here still, and it is the voters who are content to sacrifice the healthy future of their own families to ever-greater business profits.
What he did resulted in his death. What the apostles did resulted, according to tradition - in their deaths. A Christian is told many times in the bible to expect persecution if they stand for Christ. In America it may not mean physical death. But it may mean death to peer approval, death to political career, death to power, death to influence. Big business is a powerful and voracious beast. And anyone who decides to stand up to it will be exposed to the full fury.
Well, we born-once secularists seem able to weather the fury pretty well Perhaps the evangelicals need a more robust model of Christ.
Right-wing evangelicals in the U.S. have tremendous political clout. They do, in fact, nonetheless have a religious persecution complex of the sort you describe. More relevant is that no one knows how you vote unless you tell them; the evangelical right both actively chooses representatives who exploit them and wink and nod at their corruption and depredation. You may be right: perhaps they are not Christians, since they seem to have sold their souls to Caesar.
If it {satan's dominion over this world} was theirs to grant then fine. If not then what they think doesn't matter I'm afraid...
Do you see songbirds and flowers as satan's? Is it Christian doctrine that satan owns this house entire, and resistance is futile?
I am frankly curious here: should we resist no evil, then? Should we have no concern with social justice?
The Socialists of the early 20th century had a tremendous debate about ameliorism--should we try to make things better for the working folk, or should we let things come to such a terrible pass that capitalist structures crumble faster. Is it like that in the Christian church? Has the church turned its back on social justice to hurry up the Apocalypse?
It is difficult for me to reconcile that notion with Christ's injunctions about loving your neighbor, sacrificing for another, giving wealth to the poor, etc. He didn't just walk the walk, as I recall, he told his followers to do the same.
You point to a time when government could make big differences. That was then and this is now. Resources are dwindling, appetites have increased. The world is a more competitive place. Business has gotten bigger and more powerful, people more materialistic.
The concept that Government is free to dictate what business can and cannot do is a fallacy. Clean air is important - everyone recognises it. If it could be achieved without cost to the economy then it would be done. But it ain't that simple. Polluting processes are far cheaper to run (in the short term - the term which politicians find impossible to ignore) than clean ones. America has to compete with countries which it didn't have to before. Countries which pose a serious economic threat and which don't give a fiddlers about the environment. It cannot do so by adding untold cost onto its manufacturing industries. A Christian is as beholden to this reality as anyone else.
The most important environmental laws, passed when government could make a big difference, were passed in the 1970s. Since then, the wealthy have become obscenely more wealthy, and the incomes of the working class and the middle class have stagnated. The mockery of those laws is a recent development of the past five years.
I agree that the infinite greed of capitalists/industrialists drives the problem. But even a rice Christian might be expected to object to the poisoning of his children. I am not trying to restore a nostalgic good ol' days: I am trying to preserve the progress made until recently and to resist the reversals only recently begun.
I'm left with they may not be Christians, they may be cowardly Christians, and there aren't as many true Christians in the West as there used to be. I think I may better understand some Christian perspectives, but my puzzlement remains.

"It's hard to admit the truth."
-randman

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by iano, posted 11-09-2005 8:03 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by iano, posted 11-10-2005 1:48 PM Omnivorous has replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3977
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 23 of 39 (258437)
11-10-2005 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by clpMINI
11-09-2005 5:45 PM


Re: Environmentalism
Omni,
Perhaps we need to look at how strongly environmentalists 'feel' about the environment. I feel strongly enough that environmental concerns guided by education, my occupation (I am an environmetal scientist), my politics, my car, and day-to-day activities. Maybe some of the Christian types look at these strong feelings and actions and think of Environmentalism as a religion of its own, and thus the confict.
`clpMINI
I take your point, clp, and Phat made a similar observation above.
But the evangelical disregard--even disdain--for the environment is new, and the support for environmental protection among the American people--a clear majority--suggests that many of the rank and file of the evangelical right do favor such protection, yet apparently remain passive observers.
I suspect that a large part of the explanation is that conserative politicians have co-opted the evangelical movement and managed to associate environmentalism with hot-button social issues: thus, the stereotype of the liberal, gay-loving, tradiation marriage-hating, plain folk-disdaining, Commie-loving, America-betraying, Muslim-loving...environmentalist. The political leaders get richer, and the evangelical rank-and-file get screwed along with the rest of us.
I have witnessed enough unseemly eagerness to despoil what environmentalists seek to protect--especially what environmentalists seek to protect, out of all proportion to the actual economic value of the exploitation--that I suspect there is more to what you say than I would prefer to believe: it is such a hateful desire to desecrate, the kind of impulse we see in religious wars.
BTW:
I feel strongly enough that environmental concerns guided by education, my occupation (I am an environmetal scientist), my politics, my car, and day-to-day activities.
Wonderful. Thank you.

"It's hard to admit the truth."
-randman

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iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 24 of 39 (258513)
11-10-2005 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Omnivorous
11-10-2005 10:30 AM


Okay Okay...I'm a cynic....
omnivorous writes:
But we are a democracy here still, and it is the voters who are content to sacrifice the healthy future of their own families to ever-greater business profits.
A very good point. You pays your money.... Everyone knows that oil is on the way out, everyone knows the the air is being polluted. Yet they choose a government who doesn't prioritise doing something about it. I sincerely doubt that the only people who voted Bush in were evangelicals
Do you see songbirds and flowers as satan's? Is it Christian doctrine that satan owns this house entire, and resistance is futile?
'Dominion' over doesn't mean 'ownership'. God owns it, satan has dominion over it. Temporarily. Resistance not futile and should be engaged in, and the victory is already a sure thing. But where you fight your battle depends on where the leader says you should fight it. No point in fighting futile battles. The front is largely a spiritual one - although that can be given practical hands and feet. Slavery was the work of satan. It had all his characteristics: greed, cruelty, deceit. The abolition of slavery (in England at any rate) was the practical result of Christianity against the work of satan
I am frankly curious here: should we resist no evil, then? Should we have no concern with social justice?
Absolutely, but like I say, it needs to be approached from the right way. There are many ways to tackle alchol abuse for instance: you can send the person to a psychologist or tatoo a sign on the persons forehead and forbid drink to be sold to the person. Alcholics Anonymous works by using the gospel in an applied sense. It fights the battle in the spiritual realm - at its source - even when the are practical outworkings of it. Get the tactics right and the rest follows. But to go into battle purely on practical and forget the root of the problem doesn't work as well
Is it like that in the Christian church? Has the church turned its back on social justice to hurry up the Apocalypse?
If you were satan, would not the best place to aim your mortars be the enemies headquarters. Look at the dissention and in-fighting in the church, look at the child abuse that is coming to light, look at the actions of the church over many centuries. A holistic and unified body it most certainly is not. It never has been. It is showing all the signs of being subjected to divide and conquer strategy. Satan uses our tendency to sin to 'good' effect. That's not to say there isn't much light out there - there is. But to expect the church, as a body, to rise up as one, is not on the cards at the moment. We can resist - but he is not without his methods. And he is a vicious opponent
But even a rice Christian might be expected to object to the poisoning of his children.
Again on an individual basis I imagine Christians have more pressing concerns:
early sexualisation of children
dangers on the internet
the lure of materialism
the lure of secularism
the lure of alternative religions
the lure of drugs
access to education and primary healthcare.
Environment is not unimportant but when there are screaming immediates its hard to keep your eye on the ball of the more remote issues. I imagine folk of all shades will vote for the goverment who seem to say they will deal with immediate concerns. And any potential government worth its salt will know and utilise knowledge of those base fears to good effect. Getting into government is big business afterall: power is a much more desirable bottom line than money. And if you can manipulate a large section of the voting population by ceding some relatively harmless (to your own goals) issues to them then so much the better. Its not exactly rocket science. More like scratching backs..
p.s. Get well soon
This message has been edited by iano, 10-Nov-2005 06:49 PM

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3977
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 25 of 39 (258520)
11-10-2005 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by iano
11-10-2005 1:48 PM


Re: Okay Okay...I'm a cynic....
iano writes:
p.s. Get well soon
Thanks, iano, but I fear the bright path to wellness lies through the dark valley of mucus.
So...if would just be a nice Christian and consider any additional arguments you made soundly and eloquently refuted, me and my immune system would greatly appreciate it.
Thanks again for your thoughtful replies.

"It's hard to admit the truth."
-randman

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 Message 24 by iano, posted 11-10-2005 1:48 PM iano has replied

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iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 26 of 39 (258866)
11-11-2005 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Omnivorous
11-10-2005 1:56 PM


Re: Okay Okay...I'm a cynic....
Thy will be done...

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Adminnemooseus
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Posts: 3974
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Message 27 of 39 (262678)
11-23-2005 11:29 AM


This topic surplanted by another - Sending you there, this one closed
The general theme of this topic seems to now being covered in the Right Behavior Inherits Eternal Life topic.
Closing this one down.
Adminnemooseus

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Adminnemooseus
Administrator
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Message 28 of 39 (263981)
11-29-2005 12:38 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Adminnemooseus
11-23-2005 11:29 AM


Adminnemooseus mis-evaluated topic - Topic reopened
Adminnemooseus, in the topic closing message 27 writes:
The general theme of this topic seems to now being covered in the Right Behavior Inherits Eternal Life topic.
Omnivorous's comments at message 280 of the "General discussion..." topic has caused me to re-review this topic.
The above quoted sure seems to be in error - Topic reopened.
Adminnemooseus
ps: The Omnivorous message should have been in the "Thread Reopen Requests" topic , but the other location is also OK.

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umliak
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 39 (279684)
01-17-2006 2:09 PM


First, there's no such thing as the rapture and it's a pathetic figment of imagination fashioned from their ludicrous theories about how someone being murdered by God's desire can actually take away their sins. This doesn't even make any sense, and has a place in modern day society's book of official mental illnesses.
The fact of the matter is that many "creationists", who simply cannot understand that in the older days men were trying to describe things in a way that the general public could understand, are also anti-female.
They oppress the feminine energy, and in fact deny that earth and evil is a part of God. No, the greater part of God doesn't condone evil, if this were true there would be no life. However, it is obvious to anyone that everything is fashioned from God, and people are free to experiment in this snow-globe with various ideas and forms of consciousness/thoughts, including temptation and "sin".
Furthermore, they deny that God is female, as if something entirely masculine, separate from creation, and omniscient could somehow plop out from itself something entirely foreign. It's ludicrous to disblieve that everything is God.
And, so, by their atrocities and mistreatment toward women, including suppressing the ideas of reincarnation and hating any mention of Mother God, as well as mother earth, these cultics/heretics who have absolutely and surprisingly molested almost every part of the original teachings of many of the prophets, including the beloved teacher Jesus, are crusading against...well, the mother aspect/deity of existence. That motherly aspect primarily embodies/encompasses the parts of God that are material and manifesting. Well, that's all that it does.
It's a polarity. You cannot go on for millenium crusading against the balance of the universe and expressing hate toward it without noticing some patterns of destruction. They have slipped into an ignorance whereby they have begun to hate the female aspect of God and seek to prove to everyone that things have always been like this, and the names of the people they so-called represent even believed and taught this. But, again, when you crusade against natural balance, then unnatural things will occur.
And, so, with so much power, you are seeing the outpicturing of the denial of the feminine aspect (which manifests the masculine aspect, which is the call/design, and which uses evolution to meet these goals by fractaling out perfection for everything to ride and and transcend with). Whereby the healing and flow of energy from the masculine aspect which will change life for the better (THROUGH EVOLUTION), they are denying the manifestation of this energy by also denying evolution (they deny evolution because evolution is a true representation of the equal Male and Female polarities of God, though they try to force God into some angry, aggressive, testosteroney mold) and the feminine aspect.
Until they begin upholding the manifester, which is the feminine aspect, and balance it with the masculine aspect, I see no possibility for mother earth to recooperate/rejuvenate and evolve healthy, vibrant, and lively, ever again. In their conscious, filtered-awareness and sense of prophesy/inner guidance and intuition regarding their ways and crusade to monopolize heaven, they have even begun preaching the doom of mankind which is truly primarily their fault.
They actually preach that God wants mankind and earth to be doomed, and that "he" will not allow anything else to go beyond this decree of vengeance and self hatred. They try to make their hate against God not only seem normal, but condoned. They pervert various passages (in a very perverted and limited book already) and actually seek to hypnotize all of mankind into joining in their anti-evolution, which is truly the anti-christ energy. They even pervert the teaching of anti-christ into being a single, demonic, God-empowered human-being who people should be on the lookout for or else they will get their asses beat in the parking lot with a golf-club and brass-knuckles after the party is over (and when I say this, I mean their threats of eternal burning on people after their body dies, which is truly a threat and certainly not one that promotes and upholds creation and life, and so is not of God).
So, not only do restrict the manifestation of the father aspect of God on earth by allowing the mother aspect to correctly and fully conjoin with it in the reproductive, mid-way balance that brings life, which is also know as the Christ energy (which is really the outpicturing of balance and life, and not a singular person)/Christ mind, but they also teach to people that this is what God wants and they will be rewarded for sending their selves and other people into an ignorant, self-destructive state of unconsciousness. They are becoming more and more unconscious and are acting just like the Jews that crucified their so-called savior did: walking corpses. They are dead inside and seeking to drag down and destroy earth even more, as they have already sought to destroy their selves mentally which outpictures a number of other things, including extreme judgementalism (though the Bible even tells them not to say whether someone is going to hell or not because it's just not their responsibility), condemnation, and fear-based tactics.
They have a billion dollar city with gold-plated, fancy empires and then they tell people that God wants to give those men more money, and then they get on people's cases about not giving to the poor, and about being greedy when in reality they have extreme luxarious which could support many starving countries for long times.

  
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Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 30 of 39 (279689)
01-17-2006 2:29 PM


Topic title modified
I have added the "(re: Fundamentalists and the environment)" part to the topic title.
Please review my previous messages just upthread. This topic is essentially a political topic.
There also is the Right Behavior Inherits Eternal Life, but that topic has hit the 300 message mark and is now closed.
Adminnemooseus

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