I'm trying: a stairway to heaven?

There's nothing in the Bible that requires me to ask them their names.

---

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

I had no idea it sounded like that. My apologies. I doubt seriously that's what Paul was trying to say.However, there is an earlier statement in Romans that those who obey their conscience will be justified by their conscience, so even Paul must have thought there was some possibility of humans living pleasing to God.I would add, on a personal note, that I'm a big fan of Ghandi's. Ghandi was Hindu, but gosh, if he didn't have the Spirit of Christ, I don't know who did. Gandhi was familiar with Jesus' teachings, agreed with the Sermon on the Mount, and said those teachings were better stated in the Baghavad Gita (Vita? sp? I never get this right anymore). In fact, he said if it weren't for Christians, he'd be a Christian.Anyway, my point is that on a personal basis, I certainly have that kind of flexibility. As John put it, the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as he is righteous. Why would God withhold his Spirit from someone just because they didn't subscribe to or know about Christian theology or the crucifixion? (Maybe the better question is why would he give his Spirit to someone who subscribed to current Christian theology? ;->) To my mind, the flesh is the body with its desires (food, comfort, sex, etc.) Paul talks in Rom 7, just the chapter before the one we're discussing, about the clash between the law God, the desires of the body, and the will of the mind to submit to the law of God. This is really pretty self-evident. The mind set on selfishly following the desires of the body not only doesn't please God, but is not an asset to society. If everyone lived like that, there could be no society.

Fair enough. So how many homeless people are currently residing at you residence?This message has been edited by iano, 10-Nov-2005 05:42 PM

You continue to say this. And I continue to say, so what? Are you willing to admit that only those who practice righteousness are righteous in God's sight, like 1 Jn 3:7 says?"The cause is from God" or "the source is God" is not a rational answer to that question.

I'm not required to count them either. Don't waste any more posts on that nonsense.The point is that I am required to try my best to do unto them as I would do unto Jesus if He showed up on my doorstep. If I don't succeed in feeding every hungry person on earth, that is not my problem. It is those others who do not try who will be punished - just like the soldiers who refuse to go over the top will be punished.

---

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

I'm wondering why you asked that. Was it some sort of trick question?It seems obvious that people residing at a residence are, by definition, not homeless. Therefore the answer is zero. And I need not know anything about who resides there to conclude that the answer is zero.

or do you agree that Message 203 is a valid description of what is needed for repentance?

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I think that those born of God cannot continue in sin. I think they continually divest themselves of sin and become more obedient to God. I think their righteous lives stand out as "obviously" different than the unrighteous.So, I don't want to explain how those born of God can continue to sin, because I believe that it's much more normal for them not to. Who's forming a doctrine? I'm asking you to agree that 1 Jn 3:7 is true, and you don't.I don't believe you can think clearly without honesty. Therefore, if 1 Jn 3:9 meant that a person born of God would never commit even one more sin, I'd just say I don't believe it. However, I honestly don't think it says that.The problem is, you are the one forming a doctrine. You are forming a doctrine that allows you to run to this verse and that verse until you feel like you are really a Bible believer, because you've got your verses, and meanwhile you are telling me and everyone else that you don't believe 1 Jn 3:7.1 Jn 3:7 is not a doctrine. It's a statement. You don't believe that statement. You should just be honest about it. You don't like the results of 1 Jn 3:7. I, on the other hand, since I believe it is true, have resigned myself to the consequences of it. If I am not practicing righteousness, then I am, according to the Bible, a child of the devil.I happen to believe that's true. However, if I didn't believe it was true, like you apparently don't, then I'd say I didn't believe it. I wouldn't try to get you to agree it's not true--like you're trying to get me to--and then have us both pretend like we believe it.As far as your statement that if a person sins once, then they aren't doing righteousness, and they are a child of the devil, I don't think even John has said that at any point. Nor do I think that's a normal way of interpreting 1 Jn 3:7. You can ask anyone who might be reading this, but I doubt anyone not of your theological bent would think it means "one sin = practicing unrighteousness." No, trying is meaningless. If I try and fail, then something is wrong. If I'm reading John, the most likely problem would be that I'm not born of God, because if I was I wouldn't be failing. I would be succeeding. I would be practicing righteousness.I like to think I am, but I'm not my own judge. I can tell you, though, that I know a lot of other people who are practicing righteousness, who don't continue in sin, and whom I am confident are born of God.

This is nonsense. Yes, as you admit, it does leave room for 2 steps forward, 1 step back. Most everyone would admit that it at least leaves room for that.But what's not there is the room you create for plain ol' not doing it. Lots of people are doing it, jano. If you're not, and if you believe John, then you need to believe that you're not righteous in God's sight.Plain as that. I can't imagine why you want to add "it can't be done," when lots of people are doing it.

The trying bit has to established biblically. But even if we assume it is for the moment, you've now kicked the problem onto the tramp. What tramp is going to knock at your door to ask if he can come and stay for the winter? Jesus isn't asking that we wiggle out of it with ludicrous wriggling. You know his position: if you were in his position you wouldn't knock on doors with such a request. You would assume that you would knock on 1000 doors and hear NO! Your experience of people whilst simply looking for a kind word would put you wise to that. If you were in his position you would need the offer to be made to you.So do unto other as you would want done unto you. You are the tramp on the street and you would like someone to offer. Go out tonight Ringo and do unto others. Let me know how you get on will ya

Do I agree with the following as regards repentance? Yup. But not in the sense of salvation. Only in the sense of repenting of sin as I sin. A person who is saved needs to be forgiven sin as it pertains to saved people as you describe above. If they do all but the last step and merrily continue on their way then discipline can be expected. Not loss of salvation I agree I disagree. Forgiveness is ongoing. At the point in your life when you are saved you take a bath in Jesus and are washed completely clean of all sin. As you sin (in the way pertinant to the saved) subsequently you need forgiveness as you go. It is the analogy behind Jesus washing the disciples feet. Peter, as usual, leaps in with a "wash all of me then". Jesus tells him it is unnecessary. In our Christian walk we will pick up dirt on our feet. Which needs to be cleansed. It is not left until the day of Judgment.

So you agree with all of the steps invoved in repentance?

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

My question was why you inserted 'practice righteousness' into John when John says 'do righteousness'? Inserting practice into John allows the subsequent wiggling of 'try'. But I ask you to deal with do. Changing the words and so pull 'try' out of the hat is not exactly what I expectedI have to ask you: biblically, where do you get the idea that 'do something' means 'trying to do something'

You have been given lots and lots and lots of Biblical backup by lots of people here. Yet you choose to waste everybody's time with semantic babble. Don't you think that suggests to people that you don't have much of a case? "Knock and the door shall be opened unto you." I'm doing the best I can. Are you?

---

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

As qualified above, yup