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Author Topic:   I'm trying: a stairway to heaven?
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 227 of 303 (258198)
11-09-2005 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by ringo
11-09-2005 12:38 PM


Re: Seeking, Striving, Trying
Ringo writes:
It's the ones who don't "love thy neighbour" who are punished:
Hands up those who have ever not loved their neighbour. Listen to Ringo and tremble. I have a prophesy: the prophesy is that the Rizla paper that Ringo will attempt to insert between those who haven't loved their neighbour and are punished and those who haven't loved their neighbour and won't be punished will have the word "Try" written on it. I have another prophesy: there won't be any verse reference put on it.
Where's Charles Knight - he'd love this

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by ringo, posted 11-09-2005 12:38 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 229 by nwr, posted 11-09-2005 5:08 PM iano has replied
 Message 230 by ringo, posted 11-09-2005 5:39 PM iano has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 228 of 303 (258200)
11-09-2005 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 223 by truthlover
11-09-2005 2:24 PM


Re: Righteous vs Unrighteous
truthlover writes:
In the end, it boils down to something very simple..."He who practices righteousness is righteous (duh!)."
Simple....hmmm
And what we'll have at the end of all that is 10 squillion people all with differing degrees of righteousness. Where is the cut off point between hell and heaven then? Because with 10 squillion people your going to have a situation where the difference between the last person to squeeze into glorious heaven and the next person - whose going to end up frying for life being down to one expletive too many.
It's got to be someone and so as to show a genuine love for my brother...
F**K!
(but maybe that demonstration of love for another just got me 10 places up the queue and into heaven....)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by truthlover, posted 11-09-2005 2:24 PM truthlover has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 232 by truthlover, posted 11-09-2005 11:06 PM iano has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 233 of 303 (258375)
11-10-2005 6:22 AM
Reply to: Message 229 by nwr
11-09-2005 5:08 PM


Re: Seeking, Striving, Trying
Suppose it depends on what you see as a neighbour. Is that the people living on either side of you. Or could it apply in a wider context?
Your a homeless person. Its winter, it's Christmas. Your lonely, and cold but you need to stay out to get the money for a hostel tonight and to get food. You yearn for someone to stop from the rush of present buying. To stop and talk to you for a little while, to listen to you and your life. To share a little of this Christmas with you.
People throw money in your cup but they don't look at you or at best say something like "merry Christmas". But no one stops to talk to you. All too busy with themselves, none prepared to break the barrier that only they can break.
Next time you see a tramp begging nwr, take up a position and observe. Do a rough poll of how many treat the tramp as they would like to be treated if they were in that position. And how many don't
Such a seemingly simple command. So impossible to follow

This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by nwr, posted 11-09-2005 5:08 PM nwr has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 239 by ringo, posted 11-10-2005 10:15 AM iano has not replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 235 of 303 (258384)
11-10-2005 7:58 AM
Reply to: Message 231 by truthlover
11-09-2005 10:57 PM


Re: Righteous vs Unrighteous
iano writes:
I think it is very relevant indeed. I have been stating that the only way a person can be made righteous in Gods sight is if they have their righteousness given to them by God.
truthlover writes:
I want to address only one thing you said. You said that a person can be righteous in God's sight without practicing righteousness. Then you are quoting 1 Jn 3:9, which says that a person born of God does not commit sin, as though this somehow supports you instead of flatly contradicting you. Completely bizarre.
Have a look at John 3:9 (your preferred the NIV version) in full:
No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.
And later in the letter, John 5:18
We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God (Christ) keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him.
And in Romans 3:21
But now a righteousness from God is revealed.. which is by faith from first to last (ie: not works)
In all three cases, the action, the cause, is from God - not the person. "Cannot" or "cannot continue" matters not. It would seem that if a person sins then they are continuing to sin. Or maybe you can explain how someone who 'cannot continue' to do something can continue to do it?
I can tell you the way Paul sees it. A child of God is made one spiritually. It is only spirit which is a child of God. Not flesh. It is spirit that cannot continue in sin, that can only do righteousness in Gods sight (by being in Christ). It can only be this to which John refers (otherwise he contradicts Paul). That is all that fits. Remember, the context of the passage generally is 'recognising the children of God'. He is talking about the attributes of a child of God. One of which is that they do righteousness. He makes no mention of sin where it exists. That part of us that is not a child of God. The part which Paul explains as being the place where sin is 'attached to' but not 'in', the child of God. Our (children of Gods..) mortal flesh.
Context and overview TL, that's where its at. Not latching limpet- like to a single verse and forming your doctrine from it
You said that it's impossible for a person to practice 1 Jn 3:7, which is weird for a person who claims to believe the Bible. But worse, you are somehow suggesting that 1 Jn 3:9 has something to do with making it impossible.
You'd have to see it as I described it above. Spirit declared righteous by God, sin residing from then only in mortal flesh. It is impossible for Spirit to sin in the sense of being seen as unrighteous because of it...and impossible for mortal flesh not to sin. A child of God is exhorted to put to death the deeds of the flesh, or sin in his flesh. It is a process and this he can try do. But it pertains not to his righteousness. This process of putting sin to death is sanctification not salvation. Sin allowed to occur in mortal flesh is not continuing in sin. Not continuing in sin pertains to spirit.
It is also impossible to for a non-child of God to put to death the deeds of the flesh. He may very well do alot better than a child of God. But it ends on nought for him. What counts for salvation is whether or not a persons spirit has been declared righteous by God or not. Putting to death deeds of the flesh doesn't help a non-child of God to salvation. "By the deeds of the law shall no man be seen as righteous in his sight". Following the law to get salvation is barking up the wrong tree.
For a child of God, works has nothing at all to do with salvation. He is already righteous. He has Christs righteousness and wears it as a coat over him. Works are only benefical in the sense of sanctification - being made pure (or to put it anotherway: being made a good citizen of heaven. A child is already a citizen of heaven)
Can or can't here is irrelevant. Either only a person who practices righteousness is righteous, as 1 Jn 3:7 says, or 1 Jn 3:7 is wrong or nonsense.
I'll make the assumption that you think all of what I've said above is rubbish. I'll also make the assumption that you sin. Now when you sin you are not doing righteousness. If you are not doing righteousness then you are, according to the bible a child of the devil. You might say you are trying and thats what counts.
If so, you are bang on topic and should be able to point where noone else has been able to thus far. Where is trying contained in the bible. Because it seems to me that the 'triers' take a "glass half full approach" to this:
When I do righteousness, I am righteous and I will be saved
When I don't do righteousness, I'm not righteous and I will be damned
And the assumption is made that the former will hold true. But why not equally, the latter?
Where is the dividing line between salvation and damnation? Trying
This message has been edited by iano, 10-Nov-2005 02:52 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by truthlover, posted 11-09-2005 10:57 PM truthlover has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by truthlover, posted 11-10-2005 12:45 PM iano has not replied
 Message 248 by truthlover, posted 11-10-2005 1:01 PM iano has not replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 236 of 303 (258393)
11-10-2005 8:21 AM
Reply to: Message 232 by truthlover
11-09-2005 11:06 PM


Re: Righteous vs Unrighteous
Um, I'm sorry you object to 1 Jn 3:7,
Who? Me? I love every word of it. See my comments on "doctrine forming from a verse".
because whoever doesn't practice righteousness is not of God.
If you insist on forming a doctrine from a verse it would do to get the words right The word in 1John 3:7 is 'do' not 'practice'. Practice can be used in all kinds of ways. It leaves room for much wiggling; inserting implications of "2 steps forward, 1 step back" for example. But that's not there. Just: Do. And if you examine yourself you will find that very often you don't do: anger, deceit, lies, selfishness, greed etc. The menu is big enough for us all to find ample something that takes our fancy. So, seeing as you often do and often don't, which is it, child or not a child. And on what basis?
This message has been edited by iano, 10-Nov-2005 01:46 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by truthlover, posted 11-09-2005 11:06 PM truthlover has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by truthlover, posted 11-10-2005 1:12 PM iano has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 237 of 303 (258395)
11-10-2005 8:24 AM
Reply to: Message 230 by ringo
11-09-2005 5:39 PM


Re: Seeking, Striving, Trying
It says, "Love thy neighbour as thyself.
It doesn't say how often. So once should be enough shouldn't it. In which case everyone I imagine gets to heaven. Or does it mean all the time - which is clearly impossible
So which is it Ringo. Try? Cos thats the point of this thread. Try to show try.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by ringo, posted 11-09-2005 5:39 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by ringo, posted 11-10-2005 10:22 AM iano has not replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 238 of 303 (258401)
11-10-2005 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 230 by ringo
11-09-2005 5:39 PM


Re: Seeking, Striving, Trying
Ringo writes:
Is your neighbour hungry? Make him a sandwich. Is he thirsty? Give him your last Guinness. Is he wandering the streets with no place to go? Let him sleep on your couch. Does he need a warm coat for the Canadian winter? Give him one of yours. Is he sick or in prison? Visit him. If you would like your neighbour to do any of those things for you, do it for him. That's what it means to love thy neighbour as thyself.
Stop pretending it can't be done and start doing it.
Could you supply the name of the tramp you have living in your home at the moment...
Actually, make that the names of the 10 tramps you have living in your home.
Stop pretending it can't be done and start doing it
This message has been edited by iano, 10-Nov-2005 01:49 PM
This message has been edited by iano, 10-Nov-2005 02:54 PM
This message has been edited by iano, 10-Nov-2005 02:54 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by ringo, posted 11-09-2005 5:39 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 241 by ringo, posted 11-10-2005 10:24 AM iano has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 243 of 303 (258475)
11-10-2005 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by ringo
11-10-2005 10:24 AM


Re: Seeking, Striving, Trying
iano writes:
Could you supply the name of the tramp you have living in your home at the moment...
ringo writes:
There's nothing in the Bible that requires me to ask them their names.
Fair enough. So how many homeless people are currently residing at you residence?
This message has been edited by iano, 10-Nov-2005 05:42 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by ringo, posted 11-10-2005 10:24 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by ringo, posted 11-10-2005 12:49 PM iano has replied
 Message 246 by nwr, posted 11-10-2005 12:51 PM iano has replied
 Message 247 by jar, posted 11-10-2005 12:53 PM iano has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 250 of 303 (258519)
11-10-2005 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by ringo
11-10-2005 12:49 PM


Re: Seeking, Striving, Trying
The point is that I am required to try my best to do unto them as I would do unto Jesus if He showed up on my doorstep.
The trying bit has to established biblically. But even if we assume it is for the moment, you've now kicked the problem onto the tramp. What tramp is going to knock at your door to ask if he can come and stay for the winter? Jesus isn't asking that we wiggle out of it with ludicrous wriggling. You know his position: if you were in his position you wouldn't knock on doors with such a request. You would assume that you would knock on 1000 doors and hear NO! Your experience of people whilst simply looking for a kind word would put you wise to that. If you were in his position you would need the offer to be made to you.
So do unto other as you would want done unto you. You are the tramp on the street and you would like someone to offer. Go out tonight Ringo and do unto others. Let me know how you get on will ya

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by ringo, posted 11-10-2005 12:49 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by ringo, posted 11-10-2005 2:17 PM iano has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 251 of 303 (258522)
11-10-2005 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 247 by jar
11-10-2005 12:53 PM


Re: have you given up on discussing post 203?
Do I agree with the following as regards repentance?
jar writes:
recognize that you screwed up. acknowledge that you screwed up. feel sorry that you screwed up. make a commitment to try to do better in the future. actually try to do better in the future.
Yup. But not in the sense of salvation. Only in the sense of repenting of sin as I sin. A person who is saved needs to be forgiven sin as it pertains to saved people as you describe above. If they do all but the last step and merrily continue on their way then discipline can be expected. Not loss of salvation
Those are the necessary steps in repentance. Nothing in there about asking for forgiveness. Forgiveness enters the discussion at only one point and is very much dependant on all five of the conditions for repentance.
I agree
Forgiviness is very much time dependant. It is of importance ONLY at the moment of judgement. That's it in a nutshell.
I disagree. Forgiveness is ongoing. At the point in your life when you are saved you take a bath in Jesus and are washed completely clean of all sin. As you sin (in the way pertinant to the saved) subsequently you need forgiveness as you go. It is the analogy behind Jesus washing the disciples feet. Peter, as usual, leaps in with a "wash all of me then". Jesus tells him it is unnecessary. In our Christian walk we will pick up dirt on our feet. Which needs to be cleansed. It is not left until the day of Judgment.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by jar, posted 11-10-2005 12:53 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by jar, posted 11-10-2005 2:15 PM iano has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 253 of 303 (258526)
11-10-2005 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by truthlover
11-10-2005 1:12 PM


Re: Righteous vs Unrighteous
tl writes:
This is nonsense. Yes, as you admit, it does leave room for 2 steps forward, 1 step back. Most everyone would admit that it at least leaves room for that.
My question was why you inserted 'practice righteousness' into John when John says 'do righteousness'? Inserting practice into John allows the subsequent wiggling of 'try'. But I ask you to deal with do. Changing the words and so pull 'try' out of the hat is not exactly what I expected
I have to ask you: biblically, where do you get the idea that 'do something' means 'trying to do something'

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by truthlover, posted 11-10-2005 1:12 PM truthlover has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by ringo, posted 11-10-2005 2:23 PM iano has replied
 Message 285 by truthlover, posted 11-10-2005 4:23 PM iano has not replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 255 of 303 (258529)
11-10-2005 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 252 by jar
11-10-2005 2:15 PM


Re: have you given up on discussing post 203?
As qualified above, yup

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by jar, posted 11-10-2005 2:15 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by jar, posted 11-10-2005 2:26 PM iano has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 257 of 303 (258534)
11-10-2005 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 254 by ringo
11-10-2005 2:17 PM


Re: Seeking, Striving, Trying
Ringo writes:
You have been given lots and lots and lots of Biblical backup by lots of people here. Yet you choose to waste everybody's time with semantic babble. Don't you think that suggests to people that you don't have much of a case?
One doesn't know whether to laugh or cry.
I'm doing the best I can. Are you?
Nope, I most certainly am not doing the very best I can. Neither are you. You call my challenge to go out and invite a tramp in 'semantics'. I'm sure that will provide a glimmer of warmth for him tonight. That will sure fill his belly to full. The reason you don't ask him in tonight is the same as mine: selfishness. You don't want a tramp in your house any more than I do. Not because you can't but because you won't. This is not stormin' machine gun nests Ringo, this is cowering in the trenches. And I'm right there beside you
Luckily, trying has nothing to do with it..

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by ringo, posted 11-10-2005 2:17 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 267 by ringo, posted 11-10-2005 2:49 PM iano has not replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 259 of 303 (258536)
11-10-2005 2:29 PM
Reply to: Message 246 by nwr
11-10-2005 12:51 PM


Re: Seeking, Striving, Trying
Ahh, you're a cute 'oul hoor nwr. I was fooled by that cheeky chipmunk face of yours

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by nwr, posted 11-10-2005 12:51 PM nwr has not replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 260 of 303 (258537)
11-10-2005 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 258 by jar
11-10-2005 2:26 PM


Re: have you given up on discussing post 203?
Nope. But there was no mention of Gods existance either. Some things one has to assume. Belief that God exists and that he is the one from whom we ask forgiveness are two that spring to mind

This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by jar, posted 11-10-2005 2:26 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by jar, posted 11-10-2005 2:36 PM iano has replied

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