The beginning of the jihad in Europe?

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I wish now I had not even bothered posting.

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Have you noticed I'm just taunting him now? I'm surprised you haven't put a stop to that. I assume that he's managed to put the admins to sleep.

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"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

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Asking me to provide evidence for this... which is rather widely available... is as odious and absurd as asking me to provide evidence that the holocaust occured or that Romans really persecuted Xians. You really believe that it was all church socials don't you?

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Just googling "Lithuanian Crusades" would be a start.And before CanadianSteve claims that Christians were "retaking" Iberia (as if it rightfully belonged to the Chistian rulers, anyway), one should mention how the Jews fared no better under Ferdinand and Isabella's Inquisition than the Muslims.

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"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

No, I am no longer in the business of relinking to stuff after I have already given exhaustive discussions of subjects. You can look through my posts, or threads on the subject, to find what you need.I simply cannot bring myself to repeat all my work again and again, when it is so obviously ignored (exampled by Canadian Steve).But I will point you in a very good direction if you are really interested (meaning I don't have to do all your footwork).CNN and Wikipedia have excellent histories of the region and the conflict. One great place to start (besides Israel and sublinks from those pages) is to look up the British Mandate, and the Balfour document, under which modern Israel began to form.As Jar suggests, it is really playing definition games to try and pretend a longstanding majority population did not exist there and it was certainly not Jewish. Given the vastly outnumbered Jewish population it should be obvious that any such process would be artificial and unjust. Land was divvied to create a single land with a majority Jewish population. You should be asking yourself why it simply didn't take the original borders of the region, instead of the meandering and broken lands that were imposed.In any case, the process used then is viewed as illegal and antidemocratic today in modern democracies.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Holmes, it was part of a large empire. Are you suggesting the original empire boundaries be maintained?The lands had to be split. I think it was not done that well in places like Iraq, but the idea the area was already a nation-state is wrong.

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I wish now I had not even bothered posting.

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Hmmm....maybe he feels the same way?

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That would be a start. Once he realizes that his obsessive-compulsive behaviour is out of control, he may then seek some kind of treatment for it. I suspect, though, that he is still in denial.

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"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This just shows you are not aware of what happened.The lands which are now the palestinian territories and Israel could have been made one nation. If not, why not?The Balfour declaration is quite enlightening as to reasons why it was divided as it was by the foreign powers that would be in charge of the area. It has to do with more of playing the Great Game, than any necessity for people on the ground.And let's say for a second that it must be split up, should it not then have been up to the people in the region and not imposed upon those people by foreign powers?Before you answer you need to research something and think about it carefully... The Jews were engaged in a terrorist campaign against the British because the British were not going to grant them everything they wanted for Israel. Thus the answer from the Israeli side would be no. They only wanted what Jews right there in the region desired, and would support foreign intervention only as long it supported their ends, and not in favor of what the majority population in the region wanted.AbE: Whoops forgot to say, I do agree there was no set nation state at the time. That does not equate to people not living there in large numbers and relatively self regulating and able to choose their own democratic future.This message has been edited by holmes, 11-10-2005 02:23 PM

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Maybe he feels he wished jar had not posted as it is a waste of time trying to have a discussion with him? That was my point.

Ah, I did misunderstand you. In that case your post was somewhat humerous. Not falling down hilarious, but worth a small chuckle.

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"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

Thanks. It was meant to be humorous, but had a point too.

jar, don't you think it terribly impolite to use your BS meter, and then audacious to demand civility from others? Seems to me that one surrenders any rational claims to moral judgment when so behaving.================================================================="During the seventh century (A.D. 600's), Muslim Arab armies moved north from Arabia to conquer most of the Middle East, including Palestine. Jerusalem was conquered about 638 by the Caliph Umar (Omar) who gave his protection to its inhabitants."
http://www.mideastweb.org/briefhistory.htm======================================================="The Arab Middle EastAs a result of the unifying effects of Roman and Byzantine rule, there was no real distinction between what is now Europe and what is now the Middle East until the 7th century AD. Anatolia, Syria, Palestine and Egypt were all Christian and Greek speaking, united culturally and politically with the Greco-Roman world under the rule of Constantinople, while Mesopotamia (modern Iraq) formed a buffer zone between the Byzantine and Persian Empires.The decisive event in the creation of the Middle East as a distinct cultural region was the rise of Islam in the Arabian Peninsula. In 634 the followers of Muhammad set out from Medina. They occupied Palestine in 636, Mesopotamia in 637, Syria and Egypt in 640 and Persia in 642. The Byzantines succeeded in preventing the Arabs from seizing Anatolia, which remained Christian until the arrival of the Turks 400 years later. The majority of the population in the areas conquered by the Arabs converted to Islam within two generations, creating a permanent cultural frontier between Europe and the Muslim world."History of the Middle East - Wikipedia==========================================================You can find elaborate histories detailing all the various peoples who have populated the region since recorded history. Very few survive today, the Jews being one.

I don't get your point. The jews are the last surviving indigenous people from the area. They were there thousands of years before the arabs invaded. They have had a continuous presence there for 3,700 years. Thye have had to settle for far less than originally promised by the league of Nations and the UN, far less than what was biblical Israel. Meanwhile, Arabs who are relatively johnny-come-lateles, have 22 states, and will have a 23rd on the territories whenever they decide to agree to a land for peace deal. Palistinian Arabs already have 3 states, Jordan, lebanon and Syria, and will have a 4th whenever they accept Israel's outstanding land for peace offer.The Jews claim to israel is so profound and historically rooted that there it is virtually a non sequitor to speak of them as having a "special claim."

You're thinking of Israel as a single piece of land on which there lived Arabs and less Jews. In fact, there was one gigantic land mass without states, on which lived a vast majority of arabs and more jews than you realize - remember, Arabs evicted 700,000 Jews after israel was formed. That gigantic land mass was divided into 23 Arab states, and one, extremely tiny jewish state. However, whereas the jews invited non jews to stay and build a state, the arab states not only evicted all Jews, but forbade Jews then, as they do still, to live amongst them. So who is racist?And what about the US? Why should you not leave and hand your home over to natives? You surely have not nearly as much claim to the land as do jews to israel.One more thought, from MLK""Anti-Zionism = Anti-Semitism"
- Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
". . . You declare, my friend, that you do not hate the Jews, you are merely 'anti-Zionist.' And I say, let the truth ring forth from the high mountain tops, let it echo through the valleys of God's green earth: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews--this is God's own truth."Antisemitism, the hatred of the Jewish people, has been and remains a blot on the soul of mankind. In this we are in full agreement. So know also this: anti-Zionist is inherently antisemitic, and ever will be so."Why is this? You know that Zionism is nothing less than the dream and ideal of the Jewish people returning to live in their own land. The Jewish people, the Scriptures tell us, once enjoyed a flourishing Commonwealth in the Holy Land. From this they were expelled by the Roman tyrant, the same Romans who cruelly murdered Our Lord. Driven from their homeland, their nation in ashes, forced to wander the globe, the Jewish people time and again suffered the lash of whichever tyrant happened to rule over them."The Negro people, my friend, know what it is to suffer the torment of tyranny under rulers not of our choosing. Our brothers in Africa have begged, pleaded, requested--DEMANDED the recognition and realization of our inborn right to live in peace under our own sovereignty in our own country."How easy it should be, for anyone who holds dear this inalienable right of all mankind, to understand and support the right of the Jewish People to live in their ancient Land of Israel. All men of good will exult in the fulfilment of God's promise, that his People should return in joy to rebuild their plundered land.This is Zionism, nothing more, nothing less."And what is anti-Zionist? It is the denial to the Jewish people of a fundamental right that we justly claim for the people of Africa and freely accord all other nations of the Globe. It is discrimination against Jews, my friend, because they are Jews. In short, it is antisemitism."The antisemite rejoices at any opportunity to vent his malice. The times have made it unpopular, in the West, to proclaim openly a hatred of the Jews. This being the case, the antisemite must constantly seek new forms and forums for his poison. How he must revel in the new masquerade! He does not hate the Jews, he is just 'anti-Zionist'!"My friend, I do not accuse you of deliberate antisemitism. I know you feel, as I do, a deep love of truth and justice and a revulsion for racism, prejudice, and discrimination. But I know you have been misled--as others have been--into thinking you can be 'anti-Zionist' and yet remain true to these heartfelt principles that you and I share.Let my words echo in the depths of your soul: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews--make no mistake about it."From M.L. King Jr., "Letter to an Anti-Zionist Friend," Saturday Review_XLVII (Aug. 1967), p. 76.
Reprinted in M.L. King Jr., "This I Believe: Selections from the Writings of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr."

"That would be a start. Once he realizes that his obsessive-compulsive behaviour is out of control, he may then seek some kind of treatment for it. I suspect, though, that he is still in denial."Again, you lack civility. Were i to respond in kind you would be quick to see me as engendering conflict.The truth is this: The islamic world is at civil war with itself, as it has been almost from its birth. One side is amenable to democracy and peace. The other is fascist and imperialist. It is gunning not only for other Muslims, but us too. To fail to understand this, and its epochal implications, is to be in denial. these people control Iran and Sudan. They had Afghanistan. They are powerful 5th columnists in nulcear pakistan - from where they disseminated nuclear weapons tech to North Korea, Libya, iran and elsewhere. Imagine them having an empire? They were on the way to that before being set back by wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. Imagine yourself, as a modern woman, being forced to live as Afghani women did under these people, virtual slaves. They fully intend for you to be one of amny wives of your husband, to be a prisoner to your homes, a slave to your husband and sons, and to be imprisoned within a burhka. They are more powerful than you want to believe. They are behind genocide in africa, war against hindus in India, against Bhuddists in tailand, against christians in many antions, and peacefyul muslims all over the Islamic world. In fact, that is why they just attacked Jordan, a nation run by a moderate islamic monarchy.

"Why shouldn't I read the paper produced by Feith who helped develop the strategy for Bush, and states specifically that it is for securing Israel? And that this was admittedly part of Xian and Jewish conservative strategies?"So you're given to nutbar conspiracy stories. No wonder why i find it impossible to discern rational interesection points on which to engage.

Very true. And when was the last time Germany demanded to get abck land it lost in WW 11? Or that germans eviceted from those lands be given a right of return?In any event, israel has over and over returned land won in defensiove wars. did you know that this is the 3rd time Israel has returned Gaza? I'm sure you know Israel returned the sinai to Egypt in a land for peace deal. The only land Israel won't return are the suburbs of Jerusalem. Everything else is the Arabs for the asking, if they'll only give Israel peace.