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Author Topic:   The beginning of the jihad in Europe?
CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6472 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 211 of 301 (258693)
11-10-2005 9:04 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by bobbins
11-10-2005 8:56 PM


Re: Contrary evidence
My historical citations can be replicated at numerous sources. they are fact. The writers to whom i linked are very well reputed. In fact, Amir tehari is often considered the foremost middle east expert at this time. His knowledge and insight always amazes me. daniel pipes is a much admired harvard historian. he is very close to many democratically minded Muslims and their organizations who, like pipes, are loathed by isalmists and their organizations and sympathizers. The jerusalem post is, obviously a Jewish perspective. But it employs Arab journalists, including one who is internationally renown. i don't remember off hand whom else i sourced on this thread, but all are well known.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by bobbins, posted 11-10-2005 8:56 PM bobbins has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by Buzsaw, posted 11-10-2005 9:35 PM CanadianSteve has not replied
 Message 219 by bobbins, posted 11-10-2005 9:42 PM CanadianSteve has replied

CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6472 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 212 of 301 (258694)
11-10-2005 9:06 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by Nighttrain
11-10-2005 8:41 PM


Re: Anti-Semitism
Dictionaries are clear as to the definition of anti-Semitism, despite the efforts of some to muddy it these days. Unfortuantely, they seem to be having some success.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by Nighttrain, posted 11-10-2005 8:41 PM Nighttrain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by Nighttrain, posted 11-10-2005 9:23 PM CanadianSteve has replied

bobbins
Member (Idle past 3613 days)
Posts: 122
From: Manchester, England
Joined: 06-23-2005


Message 213 of 301 (258696)
11-10-2005 9:13 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by Nighttrain
11-10-2005 8:41 PM


Re: Anti-Semitism
To add, my dad is Jewish yet he is anti-Zionist.
Zionism is not the pursuit of all Jews. It is the belief in the creation of a Jewish homeland in the area known as Israel. As mentioned in the Wiki article on Zionism, it refers to the continuing support for the state of Israel. My father and his whole family have no desire to a)relocate to the middle east b)encourage others to relocate to the middle east or c)perpetuate a schism in the middle east involving displaced persons displacing others.
Semitic refers to a race, Jewish refers to a religion, that is I am half-semitic (jewish dad) but zero-jewish (gentile mum). The state of Israel was populated by Jews who were many generations removed from the middle east, and many generations from being semitic, and they displaced a long established semitic race from their lands.
If the Israelis have a historic right to Israel so the native american Indians have in North America. I will expect to see you all at the internment camp by next sundown.
This message has been edited by bobbins, 11-10-2005 09:14 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by Nighttrain, posted 11-10-2005 8:41 PM Nighttrain has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by CanadianSteve, posted 11-10-2005 9:35 PM bobbins has replied

Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3993 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 214 of 301 (258698)
11-10-2005 9:23 PM
Reply to: Message 212 by CanadianSteve
11-10-2005 9:06 PM


Re: Anti-Semitism
Au contraire, the term 'anti-semitic' has been hijacked by a vocal minority and fellow-travellers. My Oxford (admittedly a trifle dated) says: 'Semite--member of any of the races supposed to be descended from Shem, including especially the Hebrews, Arameans, Phoenicians(are they still around?), Arabs and Assyrians.
From dictionary.com
Sem·ite ( P ) Pronunciation Key (smt)
n.
A member of a group of Semitic-speaking peoples of the Near East and northern Africa, including the Arabs, Arameans, Babylonians, Carthaginians, Ethiopians, Hebrews, and Phoenicians.
A Jew.
Bible. A descendant of Shem.
and
semite
adj : of or relating to or characteristic of Semites; "Semite peoples" [syn: Semite, Semitic] n : a member of a group of Semitic-speaking peoples of the Middle East and northern Africa [syn: Semite]
So if we go along with your view of the meaning of 'antisemitism', what do you call someone (an Israeli?) rubbishing a Palestinian---a patriot?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by CanadianSteve, posted 11-10-2005 9:06 PM CanadianSteve has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by CanadianSteve, posted 11-10-2005 9:29 PM Nighttrain has not replied

CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6472 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 215 of 301 (258703)
11-10-2005 9:29 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by Nighttrain
11-10-2005 9:23 PM


Re: Anti-Semitism
We're not defining "Semite", but "anti-semitism.
definitions:
Antisemitism - Wikipedia
"Anti-Semitism (alternatively spelled antisemitism) is hostility towards or prejudice against Jews, which can range from individual hatred to institutionalized, violent persecution. The highly explicit ideology of Adolf Hitler's Nazism was the most extreme historical example of the phenomenon. Anti-Semitism has historically taken different forms:
* Religious anti-Semitism, or anti-Judaism. Before the 19th century, most anti-Semitism was primarily religious in nature, based on Christian or Islamic interactions with and interpretations of Judaism. Since Judaism was generally the largest minority religion in Christian Europe and much of the Islamic world, Jews were often the primary targets of religiously-motivated violence and persecution from Christian and Islamic rulers. Unlike anti-Semitism in general, this form of prejudice is directed at the religion itself, and so generally does not affect those of Jewish ancestry who have converted to another religion, although the case of Conversos in Spain was a notable exception. Laws banning Jewish religious practices may be rooted in religious anti-Semitism, as were the expulsions of the Jews that happened throughout the Middle Ages."
========================================================
http://education.yahoo.com/...dictionary/entry/anti-Semitism
anti-Semitism (nt-sm-tzm, nt-) KEY
NOUN:
1. Hostility toward or prejudice against Jews or Judaism.
2. Discrimination against Jews.
=================================================================
http://www.wordreference.com/definition/anti-Semitism
anti-Semitism:
in Spanish | in French | in Italian |
in context | images
Adapted From: WordNet 2.0 Copyright 2003 by Princeton University. All rights reserved.
anti-semitism
A noun
1 anti-Semitism
the intense dislike for and prejudice against Jewish people

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by Nighttrain, posted 11-10-2005 9:23 PM Nighttrain has not replied

CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6472 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 216 of 301 (258704)
11-10-2005 9:35 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by bobbins
11-10-2005 9:13 PM


Re: Anti-Semitism
Your dad's reasons are not anti-Semitic. But the majority of those who oppose Israel are, as MLK knew well and addressed as such.
natives, in fact, do have a much better claim to NA than do white people. Similarly, Jews do to Israel. rather than be redundant, i'll refer you to my arguments as presented before. It is noteworthy, though, that of all the nations on Earth, all created through conquest and reconquest, only Israel's right to exist is questioned. Given the ages old scourge of anti-Semitism, you can believe that to be coincidental. But it is not.
As for you not being Jewish... actually, reform judaism says you are if you wish to be, as in the modern world it doesn't matter which parent is Jewish.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by bobbins, posted 11-10-2005 9:13 PM bobbins has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by bobbins, posted 11-10-2005 9:50 PM CanadianSteve has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 217 of 301 (258706)
11-10-2005 9:35 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by CanadianSteve
11-10-2005 9:04 PM


Re: Contrary evidence
CanadianSteve writes:
My historical citations can be replicated at numerous sources. they are fact. The writers to whom i linked are very well reputed. In fact, Amir tehari is often considered the foremost middle east expert at this time. His knowledge and insight always amazes me. daniel pipes is a much admired harvard historian. he is very close to many democratically minded Muslims and their organizations who, like pipes, are loathed by isalmists and their organizations and sympathizers. The jerusalem post is, obviously a Jewish perspective. But it employs Arab journalists, including one who is internationally renown. i don't remember off hand whom else i sourced on this thread, but all are well known.
Hi Steve. I've yet to read the whole thread, but from what I've read, you've done your homework on Islam. I'm failly well read up on it myself and commend you for the accuracy of your arguments here. I plan to read the whole thread. I have so much stuff to do before winter that I haven't been able to participate in much. Keep up the good work.

The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by CanadianSteve, posted 11-10-2005 9:04 PM CanadianSteve has not replied

CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6472 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 218 of 301 (258707)
11-10-2005 9:41 PM
Reply to: Message 204 by macaroniandcheese
11-10-2005 8:30 PM


It is certainly true that we understand, more and more, why france opposed the war in iraq and has been consistently anti-Israel. we came to understand that french politicians and businesses were being bribed by hussein, as revealed in the oil for food scandal. And now we also learn that france was and is terrified of its Muslim population, so chose cyncical self-interest to mollify them, rather than stand up for democracy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by macaroniandcheese, posted 11-10-2005 8:30 PM macaroniandcheese has not replied

bobbins
Member (Idle past 3613 days)
Posts: 122
From: Manchester, England
Joined: 06-23-2005


Message 219 of 301 (258708)
11-10-2005 9:42 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by CanadianSteve
11-10-2005 9:04 PM


Re: Contrary evidence
Daniel Pipes - I knew the name but was not sure of the context - checked on Wiki - Neocon was one of the first words. McCarthyesque comes up, with reagrds to intimidation of professors who criticised Israel.
The Washington Post described his appointment to a government-sponsored U.S. Institute of Peace as a 'cruel joke'. Quote "There can be either an Israel or a Palestine, but not both. To think that two states can stably and peacefully coexist in the small territory between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea is to be either nave or duplicitous. If the last seventy years teach anything, it is that there can be only one state west of the Jordan River. Therefore, to those who ask why the Palestinians must be deprived of a state, the answer is simple: grant them one and you set in motion a chain of events that will lead either to its extinction or the extinction of Israel."
Another :"Western European societies are unprepared for the massive immigration of brown-skinned peoples cooking strange foods and maintaining different standards of hygiene...All immigrants bring exotic customs and attitudes, but Muslim customs are more troublesome than most."
Well he sounds reasonable.
Amir Taheri - well he is a tricky one, an Iranian who seems to have left in 1979. What happened in 1979? 1979 - hmm. Radical Islamic revolution!!!!! Could this possibly have any influence on his editorial stance? His editorial insight would amaze me if I could trust his bias. And yes he would be loathed by islamists, about as much as he loathes them.
As for 'doing homework', this gets an 'F' for selective quoting. Cheers Buzsaw for the endorsement - it really made my mind up!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by CanadianSteve, posted 11-10-2005 9:04 PM CanadianSteve has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by CanadianSteve, posted 11-10-2005 9:56 PM bobbins has replied

bobbins
Member (Idle past 3613 days)
Posts: 122
From: Manchester, England
Joined: 06-23-2005


Message 220 of 301 (258710)
11-10-2005 9:50 PM
Reply to: Message 216 by CanadianSteve
11-10-2005 9:35 PM


Re: Anti-Semitism
Modern Israel is questioned mainly due to its recent creation and the blatant disregard for the people who were then occupying the area. Add to that the number of times it has disregarded UN resolutions, committed terrorist attacks on it's neighbours, occupied it's neighbours and generally run roughshod over the basic human rights of Palestinians and you pretty much get the nature of Israel as it stands now.
As for me being Jewish - big problem - I do not believe. And I love bacon butties.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by CanadianSteve, posted 11-10-2005 9:35 PM CanadianSteve has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 222 by CanadianSteve, posted 11-10-2005 10:08 PM bobbins has replied

CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6472 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 221 of 301 (258712)
11-10-2005 9:56 PM
Reply to: Message 219 by bobbins
11-10-2005 9:42 PM


Re: Contrary evidence
keep checking on Pipes. he is a much admired harvard Historian. As i wrote, many democratically minded Muslims work closely with him. Because pipes was one of the first to write about the growing Isalmist threat, and predicted a 9/11 attack on the US several years before one happened, he did raise the ire of some - especeially Islamist organizations. So be it. One of the Islamist organizations he offended deeply, was CAIR. Long before they were revealed to be what theya re, he exposed them. But their influence is such that they were able to have some initially successful efforts at muddying his reputation. Once several of their top people were jailed for terrorist related offenses, his reputation rose yet higher. Your quotes are, in fact, typical out-of-context slurs used against him. i;ve read them before, and then seen his response which demonstrates factually the disingenuous tactics, and teh desperation of those he exposes to discredit him.
perhaps you do not realize what this allusion is about: "with reagrds to intimidation of professors who criticised Israel.." look up Campus watch. It is a site he created to confront lies regularly taught in Middle east studies departments. At first, campus watch was considered controversial and got some bad ink set up by teh slanderers he was exposing there. Nothing is said of it anymore, because its solid scholarship is simply beyong dispute. don't believe me? I challenge you to go there and find misinformation.
i defy you to read any article or essay of his and demonstrate it to be anything but well-reasoned, well-researched and strictly factual.
That he was appointed to that presidential commission speaks to his credibility, despite your effort to spin it otherwise. Similarly, your effort to discredit Amer tehari - of all people!!! - because he might have fled the islamists (my oh my, what a mark against him) is truly alternative universe stuff.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by bobbins, posted 11-10-2005 9:42 PM bobbins has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by bobbins, posted 11-10-2005 10:27 PM CanadianSteve has replied

CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6472 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 222 of 301 (258714)
11-10-2005 10:08 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by bobbins
11-10-2005 9:50 PM


Re: Anti-Semitism
You desperately need to consider propaganda for what it is, as well as the make-up of the UN: almost half Muslim, African tyrannies that curry islamic favour, and even some European nations, like france, making cynical deals and fearing their Muslim population, while also needing their votes. Israel's UN isolation reflects its status as a tiny, oil free country, with nothing to barter for influence (no UN oil for food bribe and corruption possibilities either), and the disgust it earns for being an outpost of democracy in a region where rulers are terrified of democratic revolution. (Ever wonder why the UN has condemned Israel more than all other states combined, but never an arab state? Not Sudan for committing a genocide against, first, its Christians and then its Animist Black muslims? Never china for inavding Tibet? And on and on.)
no nation, not one, not ever, has been so resolutely judicious in its dealings with an obstinate, nihilist and suicidal enemy as has Israel. History will condemn the world, yet again, for its diseased anti-Semitism as sickenly demonstrated by the UN and so many states and people, including those who should have known better.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by bobbins, posted 11-10-2005 9:50 PM bobbins has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 226 by bobbins, posted 11-10-2005 10:51 PM CanadianSteve has replied

bobbins
Member (Idle past 3613 days)
Posts: 122
From: Manchester, England
Joined: 06-23-2005


Message 223 of 301 (258718)
11-10-2005 10:27 PM
Reply to: Message 221 by CanadianSteve
11-10-2005 9:56 PM


Re: Contrary evidence
Keep mentioning that he is much admired. I may believe it after a while!
I am not sure you could contextualise a comment on the hygiene of Muslims, or their cooking or the colour of their skin.
As for Campus-Watch, their founder is Daniel Pipes via the Middle East forum, their aim is to 'promote american interests' as in the mission statement of MEF - to define and promote American interests in the Middle East through research, publications, and educational outreach. The Forum's policy recommendations include fighting radical Islam (rather than terrorism), convincing the Palestinians that Israel is permanent, reducing funds going to the Middle East for energy purchases, slowing down the democratization process, and more robustly asserting U.S. interests vis--vis Saudi Arabia. In addition, the Forum works to improve Middle East studies in North America.
The MEF finishes with the chilling statement - Toward this end, the Forum seeks to help shape the intellectual climate in which U.S. foreign policy is made by addressing key issues in a timely and accessible way for a sophisticated public.
Now how about the public being allowed to comment openly and intelligently without the discussion being shaped by a radical Zionist. Further who defines lies with regard to the outing of Professors in US colleges. Some of the quotes I have seen highlighted by Campus Watch only seem to question US foreign policy with regard to Iraq and Israel and present Islam as being less than the evil you would have us believe.
I would not go asking me to further research Pipes and MEF, I only typed his name in Wiki.
I did not try to discredit Taheri, I just put his position and views in context.
Is it not desparate tactics to call your foes "smelly"?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by CanadianSteve, posted 11-10-2005 9:56 PM CanadianSteve has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 224 by CanadianSteve, posted 11-10-2005 10:36 PM bobbins has not replied
 Message 225 by CanadianSteve, posted 11-10-2005 10:45 PM bobbins has replied

CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6472 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 224 of 301 (258719)
11-10-2005 10:36 PM
Reply to: Message 223 by bobbins
11-10-2005 10:27 PM


Re: Contrary evidence
I could look up Pipes demonstration of the non contexual quote, but i can't bother. And, again, that he was appointed to a presidential commission speaks to his respect.
In any event, i quoted many writers on this thread. all have a similar perspective on the riots, tehari too (who, BTW, is one of the democratically minded Muslims i referencd as much respecting Pipes).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by bobbins, posted 11-10-2005 10:27 PM bobbins has not replied

CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6472 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 225 of 301 (258720)
11-10-2005 10:45 PM
Reply to: Message 223 by bobbins
11-10-2005 10:27 PM


Re: Contrary evidence
What the heck: i decided to look up his comments after all:
"This sentence (the one poster Bobbins quoted) has over the years attracted considerable attention. My goal in this article (available at The Muslims are Coming! The Muslims are Coming! :: Daniel Pipes) was to characterize the thinking of Western Europeans, not give my own views. In retrospect, I should either have put the words “brown-skinned peoples” and “strange foods” in quotation marks or made it clearer that I was explaining European attitudes rather than my own. By way of example of those attitudes, here are some quotations from top French politicians from that era."
here's a link to his site, where he explains slurs aimed at him.
Reply to CAIR's Attack on Daniel Pipes
And, again, i defy you to find anything of his, or at Campus watch, which is anything but well-reasoned, well-researched and scholarly.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by bobbins, posted 11-10-2005 10:27 PM bobbins has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 227 by bobbins, posted 11-10-2005 11:00 PM CanadianSteve has replied

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