The beginning of the jihad in Europe?

Of course, but stopping building the wall at the same time would be even better

As long as the palestinians think they can wipe out ISrael, there will be no peace. Successful suicide bombs embolden them in that aim. Insofar as the barrier deters, as it does, successful suicide bombs, and weakens palestinian dreams of wiping out ISrael, it contributes to peace - as well as to the safety of israelis, jews and palestinian both. The japanese were prepared to fight on, even when they were clearly destined to lose, because, somehow, they deluded themselves into believing they might win. It was also about a macho culture in which pride often meant more than anything else. Only the 2nd atomic bomb, the first being insufficient, convinced them that their cause was, truly, lost and desperate. There is an analogy in that with respect to the palestinians, one which includes, somewhat, the security barrier (it's 95% very sophisticated fence).

And which side has the ability to wipe out the other?If the Palestinians hope to wipe out Israel they will have to use a more effective (and more destructive) weapon than a suicide bomber. Israel developed a nuclear threat in direct contravention of the nuclear non-proliferation treaty. A weapon that many still deny exists, despite photographic evidence. They even kidnapped a scientist from the UK to shut him up. That was near on 20 years ago and he was recently released and confined to house arrest, then re-arrested. Then released, etc etc. The last arrest was for 'contravening a lawful direction'. Vague is good when you have no real evidence. Now, considering the cat was already out of the bag and Vanunu wasn't really telling anything we didn't know already, this just sounds kind of, well, vindictive.Freedom of speech and action in full force, with the trial held behind closed doors, Vanunu held in solitary for over a decade (vindictive as he no longer posed a threat to anyone) , and transcripts (censored heavily) released in 1999 after threat of legal action.Again, I wish all democracies were this great.Added by edit - I appreciate he did break a confidentiality/ non-disclosure clause but surely what happened to him was way over the top.This message has been edited by bobbins, 11-11-2005 02:30 AM

They have no claim, just as modern native Americans have no claim to the entire US which unquestionably was their's until we invaded.If Palestinians should give up their struggle now, because they lost a war (and I agree with this) then so goes it for the Jews given the more than a millenia of nonexistence of their nation.And I will add to this that there were people there before the Jews arrived. It says so in the Bible as well. The Jews moved OUT OF EGYPT, into those lands and then first commited a genocidal purge of their own people who did not agree, or might not agree, or were related to people that might not agree with the new laws. And then slaughtered people after people in the region to expand their empire.Some certainly remained, and we can read the stories of the Jews dealing with those people. You can read texts from other nations about the rise of Israel in that region at the time. That would be people that existed in that region.You are playing an game of arbitrary dates and events and definitions.What people have any claim on land Steve? Especially after they lose that land and it has been populated by others for over a millenia.One might also note that while Arafat gets criticized for not really being Palestinian, exactly how many of the Jews in the Zionist movement were actually from Israel, that is were living there from an unbroken descendency from the old kingdom? And even if many were, what right would that give them over their neighbor's lands?

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Look this is complete disinformation and I have already proved this to you with facts. You can keep repeating your fallacious claims but I already showed you the facts coming from the very organizations you agree were in charge of the area.The Jews were in a minority. A very small minority within a region that could very well have been one nation. The people of that region, while not a nation, lived there just the same as the Jews. They were the ones willing to live in a single nation with the Jews, and the Jews rejected that.The Jews insisted on a single nation to be carved out within that territory using rather unusual border development. You try and paint the fact that they were willing to allow the people on lands within the new border to stay, but that does not equate to being willing to live with nonJews. If it could have been cut around them and still allow the Jews a nation, that is how it would have been cut.And the people allowed to live there were forced to be a minority in a region where they were the practical majority. And they were going to be forced to remain politically castrated forever, and given second class treatment. They do not have the same rights, particularly with regard to immigration and family reunion as Jews.Who is or who is not racist is patently obvious. The people willing to share a nation as equals in the first place were not the racsists. Those that demanded a race and religion based singular nation on an area to disenfranchise those that would remain inside those borders are the racists.Its pretty much a definition. Uh, I already discussed this. What we did to the native americans was equally wrong, and in many cases much much worse as far as brutality is concerned. The construction of the US and the construction of Israel are both on the bodies of innocent people, badly treated.And as I have already said, while I still believe some reparations are in order for Native Americans, I do understand that the time is long past for a practical solution involving handing back all lands. It wouldn't make any sense. Likewise, and I already told you this as well stating so elsewhere in this thread, that the same goes for Palestinians.They had a very good cause to war on Israel, they did and they lost, and further fighting is pointless. It simply creates a greater body count for a reality that will not change. At this point handing over huge tracts of land or kicking out all the people that live in Israel is not realistic.See Steve, if you would actually read my posts maybe you'd understand what is being said to you. I am not creating an argument that Israel should be destroyed, nor that Palestinians should keep waging a war of violence. All I am doing is not whitewashing history.You seek the victors right of justifying means by the ends, and rewriting history to pose the losers as without any validity, and your own side with the utmost. A base propagandist. What an interesting quote.Well first of all it means nothing. This is an adhominem attack on anyone disagreeing with a position. Or maybe a guilt by association. It just goes to show that even ordinarily great speakers and minds can get carried away and end in error.I am anti-Zionist, but I am not anti-Jew. On top of the fact that I have been friends with many jews, and some of the people I most respect and have influenced me are jewish (I even have a love-hate relationship with the infamous Israeli general Moshe Dyan), I have gone further than that and acted for jews. I welcome them to live right alongside me and help defend them from harm. I have acted against Nazis, that is publicly with Jews against Nazis.The idea that Judaism is synonymous with desiring the ancient kingdom of Israel as a homeland is to undercut many jews who do not feel that at all. If you read up on Zionism you will find out that it did not always exist within Judaism, and even the location of where a homeland could be was in dispute. Eventually Israel was chosen, but that movement was not shared by all jews. This is not true. Ask around. Not all jews would agree. And what I love is that it is a twofold refutation of your own position.According to this the jews were purged from Israel, thus none did remain to have any claim. And also that means that building Israel is to rebuild a Jewish (that is a single racial-religious) nation, and thus NOT a modern liberal democracy. Indeed it also shows that it is based in theology and so an imposition of religion on a region at the force of arms.Ad Hoc arguments will always come around to bite you in the ass, and this one certainly took a few pounds of your flesh.Democracy means the will of the people in a region, not the fulfillment of a racial dream of a homeland, based on myths of territory granted by God and destiny.Or were you suggesting that because MLK said something it must be true? Last time I checked he wasn't Jewish and in no way was a spokesmen for all jews. Argument from NONauthority carries even less weight than an Argument from Authority.This message has been edited by holmes, 11-11-2005 06:17 AM

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

For sure Israel only has the ability wipe out the other, yet it hasn't. But the palestinians don't plan on doing what they cannot, wiping out ISrael in a few blasts - much as they salivate at the thought. Instead, they intend to do it through some combination of assistance from other nations and a terroist war of attrition.Isreal never signed the non-proliferation treaty and is therefore not bound to it. It may well have been Israel's nuclear weapons that have kept her alive. But we know perfectly well that had her adversaries exclusively the bomb, they wouldn't have kept it under wraps; Israel would be gone and yet another genicide committed against the Jews. Indeed, iran, which hasn't yet got it, has been saying for years that it intends to nuke Israel dead in a flash - and that's despite Israel possibly being able to launch retaliatory bombs before she goes up in radioactive smoke.The scientist to whom you refer is Israeli, not English. He was arrested, charged and convicted. Israel is a country that was attacked at its very birth by 5 invading nations, several times since, and is constantly under siege. She has every right, indeed obligation, to arrest traitors. The UK and every other democracy holds military trials in secret, because military and national secrets are exactly that: secret.The world creates an impossible moral code for israel, one which if she abided, she'd be dead. In effect, the world demands, over and over, that Israel commit suicide and her people be destoyed. It is hypocrisy only explained by, again, that Israel has nothing to barter for influence, and plain old ancient anti-Semitism.

Let's play this arbitrary date game: If the US now has a moral right to exist on what was native land, in what year did that right arise? 1776? 1865?

Must be tough for a moral relativist and profound leftist to argue against MLK's moral authority.

I think the exact wording of this phrase is quite telling: This message has been edited by Chiroptera, 11-Nov-2005 02:54 PM

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"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

truth is telling, isn't it?

I do find it interesting that you take no shame that you have basically admitted your hatred for an entire group of people.In liberal democracies, most racists try to at least hide their racism. I do admit that such naked contempt for an entire people is...refreshing.Edited to add:
In fact, it's so refreshing that I think that I will post CandadianSteves quotes again: This message has been edited by Chiroptera, 11-Nov-2005 04:00 PM

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"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

What in the world are you talking about? You might want to go back and re read what i wrote. You have evidenty entirely misread it.

Sorry, Steve. I added your quotes by edit as you posted this.But just in case you don't quite understand, let me explain:you stated: When I pointed out how your choice of words was telling (about your racism), you replied:

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"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

what are you talking about? the Palestinians want to destroy Israel and that makes me a racist?

The Palestinians? All of them? Every single one of them?At any rate, you stated that the Palestinians salivate at the thought of further blasts.You are clearly saying that Palestinians as a group enjoy the violence committed against Israelis, and your use of the word salivate brings them down to the level of animals.

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"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt