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Author Topic:   The beginning of the jihad in Europe?
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 286 of 301 (259006)
11-11-2005 10:55 PM
Reply to: Message 283 by CanadianSteve
11-11-2005 7:43 PM


Re: Anti-Semitism
That's right, they're just beasts, aren't they, Steve? Barely human, and not deserving any of the respect that is due to a real humans, eh? And we know what should be done to wild animals; shoot them, cage them, pen them up so the real humans can be safe.

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 283 by CanadianSteve, posted 11-11-2005 7:43 PM CanadianSteve has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 289 by CanadianSteve, posted 11-11-2005 11:18 PM Chiroptera has replied

Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3993 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 287 of 301 (259009)
11-11-2005 11:07 PM
Reply to: Message 283 by CanadianSteve
11-11-2005 7:43 PM


Re: Anti-Semitism
let`s see what Jews for Justice in the Middle East say. A lot of Jewish and Israeli comments there that shoot your version down in flames.
http://www.cactus48.com/truth.html

This message is a reply to:
 Message 283 by CanadianSteve, posted 11-11-2005 7:43 PM CanadianSteve has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 288 by CanadianSteve, posted 11-11-2005 11:14 PM Nighttrain has not replied

CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6472 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 288 of 301 (259011)
11-11-2005 11:14 PM
Reply to: Message 287 by Nighttrain
11-11-2005 11:07 PM


Re: Anti-Semitism
That some jews disagree hardly shoots my view down. In fact, by that logic, because the majority of jews, israeli or otherwise, agree with me (as do just about all ME scholars) that means I must be right. But, in fact, i am not right because the majority agrees with me, but simply because what i say is true: as the palestinians say, over and over and over, everywhere. One has to be in denial to deny this.
ever read memri? That is an organization which translates the Arab media's articles and broadcasts into English. Check their website.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by Nighttrain, posted 11-11-2005 11:07 PM Nighttrain has not replied

CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6472 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 289 of 301 (259012)
11-11-2005 11:18 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by Chiroptera
11-11-2005 10:55 PM


Re: Anti-Semitism
Why do you misread me, over and over? Is it because that is the only way you can deal with information i present that challenges your assumptions? it is simply fact that the Palestinians want to destroy Israel. Apparently (as revealed in some kind of freudian slip), you, not me, see that as making them: "just beasts."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by Chiroptera, posted 11-11-2005 10:55 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 294 by Chiroptera, posted 11-12-2005 9:08 AM CanadianSteve has replied

randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 290 of 301 (259024)
11-12-2005 2:14 AM
Reply to: Message 276 by Chiroptera
11-11-2005 5:45 PM


Re: Possible solutions
Chro, your posts seem way over the edge, and CS just keeps responding in a reasonable tone, making good points.
What gives?
Anyone that knows anything about this issue knows the Palestinians hate Israel and want it destroyed. It's not debatable. Some of their propaganda, which they teach their people, is that Jews secretly capture and eat Palestininian babies. I know it sounds outrageous, but the ME in general does not have a free press outside of Israel.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by Chiroptera, posted 11-11-2005 5:45 PM Chiroptera has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 293 by Silent H, posted 11-12-2005 6:11 AM randman has not replied

Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 291 of 301 (259030)
11-12-2005 5:31 AM
Reply to: Message 266 by CanadianSteve
11-11-2005 2:52 PM


When did the Anglos get a moral/practical right to England after pushing out the Saxons? When did the Arabs get a moral/practical right to israel after pushing out the Jews?
Essentially I have already answered these questions. The answer would be when their numbers made it an impractical matter for them to leave, and doing so would involved commiting harm to them. What is hard to figure out about this?
Yes it is sort of arbitrary, there will be a grey area, however there are times well past and out of the grey area. At this point in time we are out of the grey area for those issues.
As for atrocities, they are committed against Jews by arabs, not the other way around.
Well the racist is now a denier as well, how fitting. The facts are that Jews certainly did commit terrorist acts and atrocities against Arabs. They have destroyed lands and people and were the first to use every terrorist tactic now employed by Arabs.
And I have never claimed that Arabs do not commit atrocities against Israelis. Indeed I am a an open critic of suicide bombings and other acts of terror and violence Palestinian and other groups have used.
See that's the point. I can look at a thing and admit where things are not as they should be, not helpful, and also admit where things are correct. You must push everything into pure black and white with Jews as some uncorruptible force for good, and Arabs a drooling horde of killers set to destroy Jews. Well actually you paint all of Islam as that as well, but right now its the Arabs.
or the gas chambers, that Israel has.
Gas chambers?
Yet Israel hasn't even responded in equal measure.
You have no sense of proportion or justice. The Israelis have responded in much more than equal measure. Before during and after there land grabs they have meted out collective punishments against defenseless people which have NOTHING to do with comparisons to Dresden and Japan. People were slaughtered en masse.
In the last initifada alone more Palestinians have been killed than Jews, and many more of them wholly innocent. This using techniques that are forbidden anywhere else.
There is no moral right to a God given homeland over the present population. That is what Hitler claimed over Jews, he was wrong then and Israelis are wrong now. It is also NOT DEMOCRATIC. I notice that you have since slithered away from debating that original point.
just as history will record the lies about Israel for what they are: yet another round of ages old vile anti-semitism. And those who subscribed to those lies will be condemned.
So ad hominem and threats? This is your logic? If history judges my words as anti-semitic then a dark future it must be. Of course you ignore your own scriptures which admonish such talk as vanity and foolishness.
I am not anti-semitic. It is not anti-semitic to say that it is not wise and healthy and just to create a nation for the advancement of one single race/religion over the rest of the people in a region. To say such a thing is to be democratic and freedom loving.
It would be anti-semitic, or point to such a thing, if I agreed with such mechanisms for others and not for Israelis, but I don't. Anyone who does this is being unjust, undemocratic, and against modern concepts of international law.
Furthermore, it seems much more anti-semitic to view jews as a bunch of pressed upon losers, whose only possible recourse to survival in the world at large is to band together in a single racist nation-state. That is the only way they can get ahead?
They are welcome in the US. They are certainly welcome here in Holland. I have lived side by side with them and fought with them for justice and freedom against those that would try to oppress them, just as they stand side by side with others that might be oppressed.
Yours is a very shortsighted and ugly view of both Jews and the rest of the world. Stereotyping and racist, even to your own people.
I don't know what history will judge of my views, but I know what I think of yours, and I know where the rules of logic and evidence stand regarding your arguments. It is not kind.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by CanadianSteve, posted 11-11-2005 2:52 PM CanadianSteve has not replied

Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 292 of 301 (259032)
11-12-2005 5:44 AM
Reply to: Message 267 by CanadianSteve
11-11-2005 2:55 PM


I've considered what you said, for a nano second. And guess what? I've decided that MLK has more moral authority than you.
You can consider him a moral authority for yourself all you want. Intriguingly according to your last post that must make you the raging liberal.
In any case, what he is not is a factual authority. He cannot speak for jews and he cannot speak for what objectively is or is not. He can say whatever he likes on any subject, but his words can be compared with reality.
Thus you cannot quote him and expect it to carry weight simply because he said it in an argument. That is a logical fallacy. And you certainly cannot quote him regarding what all Jews want when he isn't even a Jew himself.
But I digress, you have yet to deal with the harm your acceptance of this statement by MLK does to your overall argument. It pretty much sets the bottom line that Jews did not live there to set some unbroken chain of "ownership", and it without question shows that this is a religious-racist state being imposed upon the people of a region by force in the name of religion. Thus no modern liberal democratic principles at all.
Too bad about that logic thing, huh?
By the way it occured to me lately to ask you about your criticism of Arabs being basically nomadic. How did Israel come to be exactly? What were the jews referred to and referred to themselves when they ENTERED that region? What does that mean for the others that had lived there? Hmmmm.
Yeah, too bad about that logic thing.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by CanadianSteve, posted 11-11-2005 2:55 PM CanadianSteve has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 298 by CanadianSteve, posted 11-12-2005 10:55 AM Silent H has not replied

Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 293 of 301 (259036)
11-12-2005 6:11 AM
Reply to: Message 290 by randman
11-12-2005 2:14 AM


Re: Possible solutions
Chro, your posts seem way over the edge, and CS just keeps responding in a reasonable tone, making good points.
What? Well let's just say it must be based upon point of view. I see quite the opposite going on.
Anyone that knows anything about this issue knows the Palestinians hate Israel and want it destroyed. It's not debatable.
It's not debatable? Yeah that sounds quite reasonable.
You appear to not know much about anything regarding that issue except base propaganda. Heck, you didn't even know the basic history.
The idea that Palestinians hate Israel is not farfetched. Israel is an injustice thrown upon them and oppressive to them in daily life. It is also a source of embarassment as they lost in struggle to beat that injustice.
The idea that there are some Palestinians who are actually anti-semitic and hate jews and want Israel destroyed (and perhaps all jews killed) is also not far fetched. There are lost of grades of racism and bigotry everywhere and such certainly exists there, and such groups use the hatred many Palestinians have toward Israel (in general) to hating Jews in specific.
The problem comes in when the hatred of Israel that many do have, becomes synonymous with overt antisemitism, or commitments to destroy Israel and kill all Jews. That is racist stereotyping of Palestinians, just as large as the one you just set out that they say Jews capture and eat babies.
Do you know what is said about Palestinians by the rabid settler factions? Don't you see what Canadian Steve is perpetuating about Palestinians? These are just as propagandistic an unreal and sets the stage for only one solution. Heck, you can see him specifically setting the stage that Israelis have a moral right for a "final solution" option against the Arabic hordes.
In reality most Palestinians simply want peace. They want an end to repression and get some peace and prosperity. What you have against this are the extremist groups ON BOTH SIDES, which keep upsetting this possibility.
The problem is that in Israel Jewish extremists have control of the govt. Thus whatever moderates try to do to end the conflict and achieve a settlement, the extremist Israeli govt can take overt action to disrupt the process, or use an action by Palestinian extremists as justification to nullify the process and then act out collective punishment (which is illegal) to make it harder for the Palestinian moderates to stay moderate.
You really must do more research. Let me explain something. When I grew up pretty much all I had was the Israeli side of things. It was just obvious who was right and who was wrong. Then I started doing some research simply to learn more about what was going on and what had happened and was stunned.
Finding out the truth did not make me hate Jews, just as finding out the truth about Nazi Germany would not make me hate germans. What it did make me was unhappy with an obvious injustice that not only did happen, but continues to happen. And it is not "jews" perpetuating the problem, nor even all Israelis. It is a group of radical Zionists who want a racist nation state.
Their own words are quite clear on this subject. They can use all the holocaust justifications that they want, but that does not clear what they are actually arguing for and state. They believe God granted them that land and they should have it, despite the reality on the ground that they are in a land with many other different peoples.
They say they cannot live anywhere else. Why not? Do you believe they will suffer a holocaust in America? Australia? And the only defense is to have a nation imposed upon the people there?
You know damn well that the any Palestinian leadership does not buy into crap like Jews eat babies, and the majority would not, even if there are (and I do not doubt there are) groups pushing that kind of garbage for their own extremist ends.
What is disturbing is that actual Israeli leadership buys into crap like all Arabs want to destroy Israel and Jews.
Extremists are the problem, CS is part of that problem.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by randman, posted 11-12-2005 2:14 AM randman has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 294 of 301 (259045)
11-12-2005 9:08 AM
Reply to: Message 289 by CanadianSteve
11-11-2005 11:18 PM


Re: Anti-Semitism
quote:
Why do you misread me, over and over?
Fine, I'll just quote you then:
CanadianSteve writes:
But the palestinians don't plan on doing what they cannot, wiping out ISrael in a few blasts - much as they salivate at the thought.
In case anyone misses it, let me emphasis what I see as the key phrasing here:
But the palestinians don't plan on doing what they cannot, wiping out ISrael in a few blasts - much as they salivate at the thought.

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by CanadianSteve, posted 11-11-2005 11:18 PM CanadianSteve has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 297 by CanadianSteve, posted 11-12-2005 10:43 AM Chiroptera has not replied
 Message 299 by CanadianSteve, posted 11-12-2005 11:02 AM Chiroptera has not replied
 Message 300 by CanadianSteve, posted 11-12-2005 11:04 AM Chiroptera has not replied

Clark
Inactive Member


Message 295 of 301 (259049)
11-12-2005 9:23 AM
Reply to: Message 192 by CanadianSteve
11-10-2005 4:33 PM


Your source is somewhat bogus Steve.
quote:
We were initially doubtful of the authenticity of the “Letter to an anti-Zionist Friend” because the language in the first paragraph seemed almost a parody of language used in Dr. King’s “I have a dream” speech.
I felt the same way, that's why I looked it up.
quote:
And it was an odd coincidence that the “Letter” was listed as being published in one of the few magazines whose archives are not able to be checked online. Additionally, we could find no reference to the “letter” prior to 1999, which was odd because the text is such a dramatic denunciation of anti-Zionism-one that would have been cited widely.
quote:
We can only conclude that no such letter was written by Dr. King.
However, MLK did feel Anti-Zionism is Anti-Semitism ...
quote:
And he also relates that Dr. King said, “When people criticize Zionists they mean Jews, you are talking anti-Semitism.”
http://www.jewish-history.com/mlk_zionism.html

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by CanadianSteve, posted 11-10-2005 4:33 PM CanadianSteve has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 296 by CanadianSteve, posted 11-12-2005 10:39 AM Clark has not replied

CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6472 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 296 of 301 (259062)
11-12-2005 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 295 by Clark
11-12-2005 9:23 AM


I've heard that the letter in its entirety is sometimes questioned, but there is no doubt that MLK did say, as you rightly point out, that anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism. In other words, the principle point is authenticated.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by Clark, posted 11-12-2005 9:23 AM Clark has not replied

CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6472 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 297 of 301 (259063)
11-12-2005 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 294 by Chiroptera
11-12-2005 9:08 AM


Re: Anti-Semitism
I spoke the truth. Palestinians have, over and over and over and over adnauseum said this and demonstrated this. Just about every ME scholar takes this for granted when they write, so overwhelmingly have Palestinians demonstrated this thought and desire. I suggested to one poster that he monitor MEMRI's web site, which is a translation of ME media into English. why don't you do that too. Read what the Palestinian media, which is government controlled, says about Israel and Jews.
If you find the truth is racist, then comment on the racism of those who hold that view and have that feeling. As i wrote earlier, shooting the messenger is not the way to truth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 294 by Chiroptera, posted 11-12-2005 9:08 AM Chiroptera has not replied

CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6472 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 298 of 301 (259068)
11-12-2005 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 292 by Silent H
11-12-2005 5:44 AM


I had decided that it was pointless to respond any longer as, evidently, we simply will never agree. But you do raise one observation that is worthy of comment. You say that if I consider MLK morally authoritative, then i must be a raging liberal. In fact, liberalism of the early 60's is something to which I subscribe. It was classical liberalism. King, for example, demanded equality (of opportunity) for Blacks, but not so much as a people, but as individuals. JFK stood strong for the US role in both spreading and defending freedom by force of arms in a dangerous world where freedom has powerful enemies. Chances are bloody good that he would have supported GWB's plan to foment a democratic revolution in place of the threatening Islamic one - as seen in its support from several old time Democrats of the Kennedy era..
That Liberalism morphed into something altogether different. Liberalism today is about obsession with equality as determined by groups and statistics. It is no longer about equality of opportunity but, equality of results. Thus liberals today are obsessed with race, constantly measuring statistical outcomes for groups who, overall, do less well than others. When sub groups become more important than the individual, classical liberalism is no more. For rights and freedoms were centred on the individual. That was the essential building block of justice. No more.
That Liberalism has morphed into multicultural gobbledygook, such that the left can no longer understand that freedom has real enemies. Instead, it sees those who see those enemies as the enemy, much to the delight, explouited well, by those enemies. (You might want to read the tehari piece i posted, where he speaks of the Iranian Islamist plans to exploit exactly that in their plans to become an Islamist empire snuffing out freedom.) It has morphed into naive pacifism at any price.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by Silent H, posted 11-12-2005 5:44 AM Silent H has not replied

CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6472 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 299 of 301 (259070)
11-12-2005 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 294 by Chiroptera
11-12-2005 9:08 AM


Re: Anti-Semitism
Here's one example of what the palestinian media says:
"2. Special Report - No. 11
Based on Koranic Verses, Interpretations, and Traditions, Muslim Clerics State: The Jews Are the Descendants of Apes, Pigs, And Other Animals
URL: Based on Koranic Verses, Interpretations, and Traditions, Muslim Clerics State: The Jews Are the Descendants of Apes, Pigs, And Other Animals | MEMRI - 62k - 01 Nov 2002
Match(es): traditions muslim clerics state the jews are the descendants of apes pigs... solnick introduction depicting jews and sometimes also zionists as the... the sunni muslim world called the jews the enemies of allah descendants of... beseeched allah to annihilate the jews he also urged the arabs to give up... and you will understand that the jews of yesterday are the evil fathers... "

This message is a reply to:
 Message 294 by Chiroptera, posted 11-12-2005 9:08 AM Chiroptera has not replied

CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6472 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 300 of 301 (259071)
11-12-2005 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 294 by Chiroptera
11-12-2005 9:08 AM


Re: Anti-Semitism
And another:
"11. Special Report - No. 24
Palestinian Authority Sermons 2000-2003
URL: Palestinian Authority Sermons 2000-2003 | MEMRI - 65k - 26 Dec 2003
Match(es): including calls for the killing of jews part ii includes palestinian... u s allah wreak vengeance on the jews and the americans is a common theme... called upon us not to ally with the jews or the christians not to like them... with them allah deal with the jews your enemies and the enemies of... cast by allah into a war with the jews should not come at all as a.."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 294 by Chiroptera, posted 11-12-2005 9:08 AM Chiroptera has not replied

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